Pitot Upgrade
I remember a post very early on here that the mechs at destination had received ACARS report of faulty airspeed on 447, and moved that plane to the front of the queue for getting the new pitot probes.
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Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying
(Post 6453974)
I am worried that the BEA announcement hints that FDR readings will not be released until the next interim report "after analysis".
They have (and will) release intermediate & final reports when those are finished/ready/approved. |
Recovered Engine Observations
lomapaseo,
Thanks for the good photo of the engine. Bear, Your arrow (fore), are you noting the sheared Fan Blades as evidence of high N1? The depression in the stator ring, does that indicate 12:00? Where the engine was lifted into the pylon? The extensive damage below (6:00), that would be water contact?? After two years at sea, this engine looks as though it was just removed from a mineral oil bath, very clean. What do you make of the integrity of the IP/LP turbine casing, very stout, yes? So much plumbing left, and reasonably continuous. The crinkled vanes, there's your forward acceleration, yes? A few milliseconds post water contact? The "crinkled vanes" should be the stage 5 turbine blade rotor. The turbine rear frame serves as an aerodynamic stator and the LPT module is referred to as a "5 1/2 stage module". The LPT casing is a 360° machined forging made in two sections. The forward section is of a higher temperature capable material welded to the aft section made from the same alloy as the turbine rear frame one piece casting. It is a strong design and should be capable of retaining multiple blade failure from exiting the casing walls. I can't tell what the "crinkling" means as the down (180°) section of the aft end of LPT can't be seen to know if it has been crushed from the vertical forces. As a matter of interest, these engines are produced (assembled) in the US as well as in France at a SNECMA plant, shared or co-production. Correction: Bear, your observation concerning the existance of fan blades is correct. The video in a subsequent posting shows the front of the engine, even the spinner cone on this engine is present. It is the least damaged engine of the two. In the video you will see the second engine pulled up, it has the fan rotor completely missing. TD |
AZR & others
Let's not overlook the fact that various interested parties, especially Airbus, will be provided with a copy of the FDR data very quickly.
In the past, if Airbus finds an aircraft-related issue needing operator action or warning, it issues a notice to all operators within days. This is not intended to guess or replace the official BEA conclusions. |
@ Graybeard in re distance and decision points: thanks for the insight on timelines and timeliness.
If the radar is manipulable by the aircrew, and there are two pilots in a cockpit, and aircrew is familiar with the equipment and its function, I am not sure that the automated version is a requirment. I realize this is a partly philosophical argument, and partly fiscal, since you note that companies are loath to upgrade (cost!) without a compelling reason. To expand my thought into CRM, if the crew is aware of weather forecast before takeoff, and conditions en route, and get occasional to frequent updates on weather as flights progress, then where there is the sort of weather that Wx radar is built for analyzing, the crew prioritizes that function (figuring out how nasty that Wx up ahead really is) in its tasks en route. One pilot flying/monitoring performance compared to planned and expected, the other "I am on radar" monkeying with the radar to coax the best performance out of it that he can. Seems to me well within the remit of multi place aircraft crew task loading. What am I missing? Is the auto feature more useful in terminal area evolutions (departure/arrival) or is it intended for more robust capability en route? |
would they be expected to communicate with other planes flying the same route re weather up ahead?
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Recorders
I for one would like to congratulate Honeywell for manufacturing such strong recorders. This certainly will be a boost to the company's name and reputation.
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Lonewolf50;
Re "automated" radar...let me dream off-topic a moment. I am thinking about the usual moisture-driven images but married with real-time satellite returns which provide pilot-selectable three-dimensional images and which place one's aircraft in-situ, in-scale, real-time, with the weather one is navigating a path through/around. Such radar would find shear conditions and provide sufficient filtering for crew awareness without overloading them with possibly-available data but which somewhat-to-largely irrelevant to safe flight around the kind of weather seen here. The quality of the data must be extremely high [reliable] but presented graphically and simply so quick decision making about pathways that are, say, ten miles ahead, (just over one minute of flight) and within the turn-rate capability of between 1 & 2 deg/sec. Such capability avoids the threats-to-flight of signal attenuation, (blocking of returns by closer build-ups). As with RVSM and lower RNP capabilities and such technology's effects upon altitude availablity in increasingly density-challenged airspace, such technologies might tempt tighter fine-tuning of clearances when negotiating giant squall lines, but all this is dreamland stuff. But is "To Filter or Not to Filter", automation's question? I much prefer manual control so I am more aware of the basis upon which the radar returns I am viewing are created. As many others who do this work here have attested, switching between manual and auto gain, tilting the antenna to "survey" heights of returns and simply being aware of the nature of returns, provides more than adequate information to see, anticipate and where necesssary, navigate such weather. At night, just looking out the window, hand on the heading knob, with permission to deviate, (using CPDLC!..brilliant technology), and watching the radar while observing/memorizing the "pattern of buildups" during (distant) lightning flashes or by moonlight, can be as effective a deviation technique. In my experience, far too many crews did not know how to use radar and did not even understand what the returns really meant. Rather than spending money on automating the radar-return process, a better bang-for-buck is teaching crews how to use radar correctly but that's tactical approach and doesn't add to business's bottom line or share price. |
Unless something really unusual / extraordinary happened I would say that the investigators would have a broad picture of what happened with hours of retrieving the content of the FDR / CVR. I would be very surprised if they manage to avoid any leak within the next 2 months...
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@ oldchina (#1484)
Yes of course. My point was to say that the "impatience" of the general public (and the "public" within the industry) has never better been addressed by the BEA. Therefore, let's be patient. They will know before the vast majority of PPruNers. And when they say when they're to release data, it's a careful saying : IMO better say "you'll not hear from us before summer", and disclose data sooner than anticipated, than the contrary. As you point it, Airbus will know before us, too. And that's good for safety, as well shown in your post. |
Earlier press reports said that there have been a few cases where info in the FDR was not able to be read after it was recovered.
Would anyone like to speculate on how these boxes survived in 10,000 feet of water for so long? I would have thought the pressure alone at that depth would have made this unlikely. |
They're rated for an even greater depth so not suprising at all that they survived. Finding them 2 years later without the pingers on the other hand.....
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PJ, thanks.
In my experience, far too many crews did not know how to use radar and did not even understand what the returns really meant. Rather than spending money on automating the radar-return process, a better bang-for-buck is teaching crews how to use radar correctly but that's tactical approach and doesn't add to business's bottom line or share price. 2. Isn't there a motivation, a cultural norm within the pilot community, to know what the kit does? I guess something you are touching on is how to formalize the passing on of lore, rather than the informal "learn on the job" that many pilots are familiar with. Can't there be a mix of both? Does this all have to be "either or" in terms of getting to know one's machine? |
WXR-2100
Rather than try to explain it, this is from Collins:
The Rockwell Collins MultiScanTM Hazard Detection System is the first and only radar that analyzes and determines actual weather hazards, not simply atmospheric moisture content to provide flight crews more accurate weather returns. The MultiScan system is derived from extensive operational experience to create a fully automatic, hands-free airborne radar system that reduces pilot workload and enhances safety and passenger comfort by minimizing unexpected turbulence encounters, and provides optimal clutter-free weather displays. Learn more about MultiScan at Rockwell Collins’ Web site: http://www.rockwellcollins.com/products/cs/at/avionics-systems/weather-hazard/science/index.html Key Features & Benefits
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Survival of FDR data unit
Simply by adequate engineering. Desighn depth is close to 20 000 ft. Exposed was the unit to about 13 000 ft. So a lot less than desighn + saftey margin. The hydraulic environment produces a steady load. So if that piece is watertight at the beginning of the period under water it will be watertight even after 2 years or more.
I remember a post in this thread that showed the exact data for that type of FDR, beside the 6000 m depth resistance I thought to remember an impact resistance up to 750 km/h. It´s apparently a very massive piece made of steel. |
Radar manual scan at many tilt angles
Graybeard,
the tilt should have been pointed down into the wet part of the storm, moving the tilt up and down to see maximum return In most of cases doing that you will be able to fully "characterize" the WX pattern ahead for an adequate "decision making/risk taking" by scanning from sea level to your FL. And this possibility certainly they had in advance. |
Annex14
Simply by adequate engineering. Simply by engineering to the specifications. Unfortunately 228 souls had to lose their lives to prove, in a real accident, that the company produces what it promises. |
I commented on this simple and effective procedure in a post some weeks ago. In most of cases doing that you will be able to fully "characterize" the WX pattern ahead for an adequate "decision making/risk taking" by scanning from sea level to your FL. And this possibility certainly they had in advance. |
Wow, where are you guys getting all the news tidbits on AF447? Some "great" pictures in this thread too...where's it all coming from?
Any word on FDR / CVR data recovery yet? Does France / "Europe" allow the release of such information to the public? |
Readable after ~2years at ~4,000m depth
It´s apparently a very massive piece made of steel They are using the same case now for CVR/FDR memory. And proved successful. We need ASAP better ULB´s. Being addressed presently. And "last but not least" better AS sensors. The 38 cases with machines so dependent on it´s data is a proof of a "slow motion" kind of bureaucracy. Still for some time giving chances to "Murphy Law". |
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