mm43;
I was wondering that - so the "substrate" of the chips, (with the 'real' works inside the substrate, so to speak) would likely protect the memory and the memory itself would be readable? (given that it is otherwise intact)

What is required is a cross section of the unit, but I think Honeywell may have something to say about that!!:ouch:

jcj

I for one agree with you. The principals were "done" after Phase two, certainly after Phase Three. It cannot be proven unless a civil suit is initiated by the families implicating the two private corporations, and the BEA. "No Harm no Foul". Had the families and their advocates not insisted, there would be no "recovery". It is not through the heroism of AF or AB, that is absurd. The independent crews and professionals are the achievers, but again, only because there was impetus from families, and the Court, with its indictment of manslaughter.

Having a bias whilst in a position of authority is as prevalent as air. Objectivity is the target, but the bull is seldom pierced. Accusing of a bias is not a Conspiracy. A conspiracy is a secret discussion of a plan that is unlawful. The conversation is in and of itself a crime. Too many posters here are puffing nonsense without an understanding of the language.

A "theorist" is not to be scolded, however, as PJ2 declares, absent a reasonable demonstration of possibility, one holds a theory loosely.

This thread is the most fun I've had since I quit flying. And fun to me is confrontational dialogue; since I have learned a great deal, there's the grail. (for me)

If 447 started going down at 0210, and the wreckage is within six miles, she had an average rate of descent of over 6,000fpm at 45+ degrees ND ??

Hi,

FDR finally found, was a milestone in the investigation.
Another highlight (but this time on the FDR himself) is that the pinger is no longer attached
I hope they still look as it is also important to know whether pinger (s) was in operating condition during the first 30 days ......
Again we see that the design does not meet expectations
So there's already a lesson to learn (although this is not a first .. so it's a nail hammering !) ... and especially of the responses made to perfect this device ....

The procedure, announced in advance, is that a French naval ship will transport the recorder back to a French port, and from the port it will be flown to Paris. The recorder is now in the custody of the French Judicial Police, and will remain so until it is examined by the BEA in Paris.

My reading is that the port is a continental port.

One thought about the FDR that has been bugging me for a while:

if there was unreliable data in the system (not least, airspeed) won't this incorrect data be contained in the recorder? Are there enough other parameters recorded that could be used to work out the actual values of suspect values, if at least some of what is recorded is affected by defective inputs?

PJ2
That is my understanding, and as a data state change can only occur with an applied voltage, any potential short circuits can be ignored.

I am sure that if the initial download in France fails, the CSMU will be flown to the USA to enable Honeywell to access the substrate and interrogate the chips directly.

auraflyer

no worries. It's all in there, and if the CVR works, there will be some expert commentary to go along with the traces. The grail is home.

Readability of recovered CSMU
 

In the FDR wewbsite we have:

http://www51.honeywell.com/aero/common/documents/Flight_Data_Recorder_%28SSFDR%29.pdf


In page 9 you can see the kind of protection to the PCB where the FLASH MEMORIES are soldered.

This protection is the first layer.

If the PCB is corroded an alternative is RESOLDER the IC´s in another PCB.

A third alternative would be read the content of each chip in the manufacturer.

IMO the chances to READ ALL DATA are high.

Finger crossing.

PS

We can suppose the new cylindrical shape is more survivable than the one showed in the product link. The former seems very tight.

We learned they are using the cylindrical shape as observed by Nick L at Post #424:

FDR Damage
 

The FDR appears to be damaged (IMHO) far more than can be explained by a 100g impact. It was designed and located in the aircraft in the best position to maximize survivability in a high-speed forward impact. On its face, this device experienced miniscule forces compared to what it was designed to withstand.
That said, perhaps what we see is evidence of the FDR being caught between major structural components at the time of impact. Did VS attachment hardware (or a similar event) crush the FDR and pinger against a major structural component on departure from the aircraft?

Just reflecting on some of my past encounters with the old GIGO (garbage in, garbage out) problem -- first order of business was working out which are your "known good" or "suspected good" values, which you had to use to identify/(correct if possible) the "potentially bad" ones ...

Also, while there's "pie in the sky" talk about their design, I wonder if there's any ability to have some redundancy between the recorders -- in addition to what the CVR currently stores, is it possible to have it record at least some of the key FDR values, and vice versa (if that is possible). I suspect cost/size would come into play though...

Accelerometer
 

I find the fact that there's an accelerometer included in the data recorder package most fascinating (the Honeywell pdf says it's an option but I assume it's there). With this, of course, the complete terminal trajectory of the aircraft (or at least the portion containing the recorder) can be reconstructed up until the unit lost power - even continuing until the memory unit separated from the chassis in theory.

Before and after UAS
 

auraflyer

The chances to UNDERSTAND everything with readable FDR and CVR are near 100%.

Remember you are continuously recording before and after the "air speedometer"
fails. This fact,the number of parameters you can analyze, their timing together with AUDIO recorded in cockpit from many sources (microphones) allows a very complete analysis. Fascinating, indeed.

Very probably we will be able to Xcheck with ACARS because electrical supply to the recorders may be lost only at sea surface impact.

Regarding the concern over the circumferential line on the end of the memory unit. Remember, there has to be a way into the unit to build it and service components. Most likely we are seeing an end plug with O-rings that seal the actual aperture into the casing. The other end seems to have a ribbon cable coming out of it in one of the pictures. The condition of the ribbon cable looked quite good.

France24 - AFP report
 

Note the BEA's caution!

Thanks Mac.

My fault - I didn't make it clear that I was wondering about a situation where they only recover FDR, but no CVR. Need my morning coffee ... :)

Optional accelerometer
 

macilrae,

I didn´t see mention to the optional accelerometer at BEA info.

It´s offered in page 10 of:

http://www51.honeywell.com/aero/comm...28SSFDR%29.pdf

This data are fed by a/c sensors and Systems like INS i guess.

bearfoil, quote:
"This thread is the most fun
I've had since I quit flying. And fun to me is
confrontational dialogue."

Ouch!

"Too many posters here are puffing nonsense without an understanding of the language."

Quite. :rolleyes:
bearfoil, this thread wouldn't be quite the same without you! Just hope you didn't create as much confusion in the cockpit as you do routinely on this thread...

"A "theorist" is not to be scolded, however, as PJ2 declares, absent a reasonable demonstration of possibility, one holds a theory loosely."

Huh? Oh well, never mind... :confused:

On a more serious note:
"If 447 started going down at 0210, and the wreckage is within six miles, she had an average rate of descent of over 6,000fpm at 45+ degrees ND ??"

To descend about 37000 ft from FL350 in a straight line would be slightly over 45 deg flight-path angle, assuming the dense debris is within 6 (nautical?) miles of LKP. Seems impossible unless the aircraft was already stalling at 0210z, which would surprise some of us. But there is also the possibility of a high-speed diving teardrop, followed by a stall at low altitude.

Few of our various cherished theories are going to survive the FDR traces...

Bearfoil

Of course BEA, Air France and AB were going to try and find the wreckage come what may. The simple reason for this was they didn't know what happened and not knowing means that there could be a reaccurence. Knowing what happens means that they have a possibility of avoiding this reaccurence. There was never any question of them abandoning the search until they had found the aircraft. Pressure from families and other bodies was a side issue. The French authorities have done an excellent job in finding and recovering the FDR and instead of being churlish about this you should be acknowledging the good work.

mm43,

Actually you´re right. I made a confusion; it was the Alucia that took three days from Recife to the place where it began the previous search.

What really matters to my calculations is that a ship can take 3 days to reach the brazilian port of Recife. But, as someone already said, the equipment will be sent to a French port before a plane take it to Paris. A desnecessary delay, one could say, but I understand that the french wants everything into their jurisdiction.

At nominal CG
 

(Optional)

SaturnV;
If you check back to the Phase 3 search data, it was proposed to send a French navy patrol vessel from Cayenne, French Guiana. I doubt anything has changed.

Found a black box from AF447...

French investigation agency says black box of crashed AF447 found

Old Carthusian

It is difficult to be churlish with one who admits to being old. I do not share your consummate confidence in AB and AF. BEA and the Judicials, perhaps. BEA has done as expected, no comment. I think there are at least a few in the Boardroom of ABAF who were ready to......."Move along, nothing to see here"

AF, for example had to look at the threat of a strike to replace equipment it was ordered to do prior to 447's ill fated recipient of the very thing addressed by the equipment changeout. UAS or not, AirBurst or not, etc., action is not (was not) done as precautionary, or even as required, and it can be argued there were dead people due a dragging of the feet...... Yet you insist AF and AB were Johnny on Point to find the evidence of an accident they likely had a hand in causing?? Not sensible prior to argument.

Brazilian newspaper "O Estado de São Paulo":

"The Office of Investigations and Analysis of Civil Aviation (BEA, its acronym in French), France's government agency that is investigating the cause of the crash of Flight 447 with Air France, expects to extract data from a black box found in this Sunday in about two weeks. Although not examined yet, the piece of equipment seems to be in "good shape", which increases the likelihood that technical information from the flight have been preserved."

Possible scale
 

Here is a suggestion for a possible scale.
I have "squared up" the top image, so an exact correspondence of objects is unlikely.
The red arrows are all vertical and of equal length.

http://pickyperkins.home.infionline.net/scalefield.jpg

If this guess is correct, it seems likely that the MU was found in the central region of the debris field.

Might the bottom right-hand object in the top image be a wing?

FDR found
 

Bea:
Information, 1 May 2011

Looks in relatively good conditions:

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....r1.reduite.jpg
http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....r2.reduite.jpg
http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....r3.reduite.jpg

Aljazeera is reporting that they will send it to Paris to analysis in 8-10 days.
Air France crash recorder recovered - Europe - Al Jazeera English
Also the recovery of the bodies has started.

Nice job PP! I was actually using your image to try to scale mine as well, so I'm glad you posted.

I am now guessing the object to the east is a wing with a substantial piece of fusilage, and the object to the south is the other wing. Engines, APU, landing gear must be in the field above the southern wing-like object. There are two other symmetrical objects in that field.

I believe you noted previously the A330 wingspan is 60.3m.

I have yet to see any photo with a rock in it, so I am guessing all of the returns are debris. The recovery team "lucked out" in a sense (seems like a terrible thing to say...), because I'm sure this would be much more difficult in rocky undersea terrain.


http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/31/debrisscaled.png

Oh, do tell? Is it because the drawings, diagrams, and literature do not in any way indicate there is a wire antenna? Is it because the far end is short circuited to the "larger" "sort of ground plane?"

{^_^}

And here is the main field scaled with Picky Perkins' estimates:

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/153...edenlarged.png

snowfalcon2, I was wondering if anybody had picked up on the missing pinger. That was supposed to stay attached. So the crash must have been a humdinger to break it loose.

(I also note that Honeywell got some sort of nice product placement in the pictures.)

{^_-}

Bearfoil

Why do you say that AB and AF had a hand in causing this accident? Are you privy to something that we others aren't? No one yet knows how the accident happened. There is a lot of informed and knowledgeable speculation of which you have been an honourable part of but lets not go too far and let our prejudices run away with us shall we?

Be better if the recovered CSMU was sent straight to Honeywell for readout.Could be a tricky data extraction process,may as well be attempted by the best qualified hands the first time.

Navy boat to wait!?
 

"Le Figaro" 01MAY:

Le Figaro - France : AF 447 : une premire bote noire a t repche

.../...

Le module récupéré dimanche doit encore être transporté au BEA où il sera décortiqué dans une dizaine de jours. L'objectif est maintenant de repêcher la seconde boîte noire, celle enregistrant les conversations dans le cockpit, avant que la marine nationale vienne chercher le premier boîtier afin d'acheminer les deux enregistreurs en même temps.

.../...

"The module recovered Sunday should still be transported to the BEA where it will be decorticated in about ten days. The objective is now to recover the second black box, the one recording the conversations in the cockpit, before the French Navy comes to take the first box in order to take both recorders at the same time."


Le Point 02MAY:

La principale boîte noire de l'AF 447 retrouvée - Le Point

.../...

Dès que les deux enregistreurs auront été retrouvés, un navire de la marine nationale viendra les récupérer sur l'Île de Sein pour les emmener en Guyane. Il semble exclu qu'une escale soit prévue au Brésil par crainte d'une saisie de ces pièces essentielles au déroulement des enquêtes technique et judicaire. Puis, à bord d'un des avions de ligne quotidiens depuis Cayenne, les enregistreurs seront acheminés au Bourget au BEA qui dispose des bancs spécialisés de lecture.

.../...

"As soon as the two recorders are found, a ship of the Marine will join The Ile de Sein to take them to (French) Guyana. It seems excluded that a stopover is planned in Brazil for fear of a seizure of these essential pieces to the technical and judicial investigations. Then, on board one of the daily flight from Cayenne, the recorders will be conveyed to Le Bourget where the BEA has the specialized reading benches."


NB: Airlines operating between Cayenne and Paris (Orly) are Air France and Air Caraïbes.

The first article in "Le Figaro" puzzled me because it is clearly stated that the Marine ship would wait for the second "box" to be recovered before going to Cayenne. It seemed amazing to me that the Authorities would wait, considering the utmost importance to start analysis of the DFDR as soon as possible.

The second article in "Le Point" simply confirms my interrogation while adding kind comments about Brazilian possible seizure.

My personal feeling is that the CVR might already had already been located and might be recovered soon. It is the only way where we can admit to waste a so much valuable time.

Edit: "Le Figaro" has slightly amended its article. It should be read:
"The module recovered Sunday, sealed and stored in water should still be transported...

@PP your correlation between the two sidescans is truly correct

the distance vertical between the lines then is 4.3m (14 feet, but I am not shure if the french underwaterspezialists will use pied´s or meters) , the distance horizontal between the "mayby line nummbers" is 50 m

TWT wrote:
I think you are alluding to the Perpignan accident? Those recorders (same models as on AF447 btw) were recovered after just 2 and 3 days, respectively, from a depth of only 40 meters. Nevertheless BEA spent a whole month on unsuccessful attemps to read the memory cards and then gave up. From the report: "They were examined at Honeywell, manufacturer of the recorders, in the United States on 5 and 6 January 2009 in the context of an International Commission of Inquiry. Some short-circuits were discovered on the cards. Eliminating the short-circuits allowed a complete read-out of the data."

But it seems that BEA have learnt from this experience and are getting better. Here's a summary of their participation in the Yemenia crash: Point d'information, 30 juin 2010 . I've found no English translation on their website, so here's my own attempt:

Thanks noske,that information is appreciated

Quote from Le Figaro, translated by Squawk Ident:
"...The objective is now to recover the second black box, the one recording the conversations in the cockpit, before the French Navy comes to take the first box in order to take both recorders at the same time."

(Thanks for the fluent translation, by the way.)

Quote from Squawk Ident:
"The first article in "Le Figaro" puzzled me because it is clearly stated that the Marine ship would wait for the second "box" to be recovered before going to Cayenne. It seemed amazing to me that the Authorities would wait, considering the utmost importance to start analysis of the DFDR as soon as possible."

I don't infer that this understandable plan is non-amendable. They've got about three days to find the CVR memory-module. My guess is that, if that "objective" (finding the CVR before the naval ship arrives) is not achieved, plan "b" will be launched. "DODAR", as we used to say: a continuing process.


PS
Looking at some of the work presented here in the last 12 hours or so, I'm amazed at the perception, cunning and expertise of other contributors to this thread.

The BEA submitted its report</span> to the Comorian authorities</span> which published never anything, of fear of causing offense</span> Yemenia and the Yemeni authorities.</span>

Chris Scott told:
I guess you are right. The next three days might be interesting to follow, hopefully. I hope we will have a good news about the CVR very soon. May DODAR be with us! (and also Google and our favorite Forum...)

Regards