B777-300 Tail scrape
 

B777-300 tail scraped during takeoff with an attitude of about 7 degrees,light gusty wind with rising temp condition,max TOW RWY 34L YSSY. How could this happen when tail scrape attitude in the manual is 8.9 degrees? Any ideas?

Over rapid rotation at high gross weight could do it. For the 747 at max weight, the rear fuselage can come down to within 18'' of the runway during rotation. It only takes a bit of bizarre and rough handling at high weights to have a scrape.

Add a little downhill slope of the runway, perhaps?

Greetings, Oleo collapsing at rotation? (not sure of the spelling :ouch:)

The clue is gusty.
Any gust in the 7 secs after initiating rotation is likely to result in a tailscrape in a B777-200/300.

Not an ER as it won't let you scrape.

Any more information?

halas

The 777ER did scrape tail in NRT but in strong wind.
VIDEO: Korean Air 777-300ER Tail Strike at Tokyo Airport | NYCAviation.com | Planespotting and Aviation Photography, Breaking Airline News, Aviation Discussion

I've watched it time and again in long(er) bodied airplanes.
Heavy weight takeoff, gusty winds...and yet, dispite discussion about this prior to the takeoff maneuver, some First Officers continue to use a rapid rotation technique...and in doing so, tailscrapes can be expected.

So, what to do?
In my ops, if the takeoff is near maximum weight, and the First Officer has had a propensity in the past of not listening to reason about his takeoff rotation technique...the takeoff is mine, regardless if it hurts his feelings...or not.
In addition (and this was recommended by Boeing many years ago with the long bodied 707)...use (if runway permits) the improved climb option for takeoff V-speeds in gusty wind max weight takeoffs, thereby helping to avoid tailstrikes.

That is my technique anyway, with heavy jet transport aircraft.

The idea of waiting for the Vr call, hauling back rapidly on the pole, and hoping it all works out, is nonsense, in my considered opinion.

411A: Have you considered that most first officers are aspiring captains, and will likely listen and follow advice if it is correctly and appropriately given? Have you considered the fact that in many cases, the captain does not know it all, despite having more experience? I came to read this thread right after the discussion about circling minima, where I did react to your statement "if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen".

I do apologize in advance for the thread drift, but if your first officers continually "can't take the heat" or does not want to listen to you, do you routinely override them? I have my opinions about such CRM...

Preparing for incoming..... :uhoh:

Absolutely.
I'm the Commander, not them.
If they don't like this arrangement, they can always complain to the Chief Pilot (of course, if they do so, they will be talking in my direction:E).

I'm sure you do, however it makes little difference to me.
Long before the latest CRM nonsense, we had something far better (in my opinion)...it was called crew coordination...worked good!
And...still does.

New(er) guys to the FD wouldn't know about this, of course....their loss.

OK. Let's agree to disagree then :).

And let the tailscrape topic continue....

411, You Numpty!!

At an airline I used to work at, we had 2 tail strikes. All by Captains. One other occasion saw myself calling attitude twice followed by nudging the column discreetly forward due to LDG ATT 6 degrees and an unsafe landing technique being used (By the Captain)

Get away from this "I told the F/O not to do it" mentality. I would personally not like to fly with you... get out of the past!

CRM???? Not here Sir!!

Being in the left hand seat has taught me a whole lot about how to treat people, I think it's about time you let your defense mechanism down and let the little dude in! You're there as a coach as well as a Signature...

I'm quite sure you would not be invited, Dash2Class.
Having been an instructor and check pilot for quite a long time, I find that pilots that don't listen to reason, are not worth bothering with...they can go and work somewhere else.
In 43 years of professional flying, I have had only one pilot complain about my personal style...he went directly to the DFO...and received a two months suspension for his trouble.

I'm sorry, I hope I'm correct in assuming that you don't handle all cockpit disagreements in that way - but your approach as you described it seems a tad antiquated, no offense. Obviously if an F/O doesn't agree with reason as you described the captain should make his point clear - after all he's PIC. But - that doesn't mean that the FO is always wrong in having a different opinion than the captain... In any case, whats left to discuss here? Yes, someone scraped a 777 tail, doesn't matter who did it, some other bloke managed to take out dozens of approach lights in an A345. Mishaps happen, there are well known ways of preventing it.

Been there to in my 30 plus years of which 25 of those years as a line training captain/check airman.

High Temp. High Alt., MTOW. Over a cup of coffee after our ops briefing, I review takeoff roll, and rotation procedures and techniques used to avoid the dreaded tail strike.

At the point of rotation, I am very aware or rate of rotation, and my hand is at the ready on the column to prevent the over-rotation... as discussed over our cup of coffee before walking out to the jet.

Saves the airplane, ensures good CRM for a long day, and we can review the events during that particular takeoff, and try it again.

I try to impart to the newbies that an airplane is not a simulator, nor does an airplane know how to read performance or procedure manuals. Not one takeoff will be the same as previous takeoffs... other than the fact the plane somehow, by the miracle of the Sky Gods, separates from the earth until such time, either it's time to land, or the plane runs out of gas.

some questions to 411A
 

Hi

May i ask you some questions, as i am not so experienced as you are....

Who is going to prevent your mistakes in the Cockpit?
How do you encourage and support open communication from the other CM?
How do you handle a CM who has a better idea than you?
How do you handle a mistake made by you but not yet discovered by the other CM?
Do you admit that you have no idea to other CM?
Do you think its your duty to teach your CMs not only Handling, Procedural, Technikal but also interpersonal skills?

you can count yourself as a lucky chap that you made it so old and a poor guy that you didnt learn anything during all those years...

cheers....

Of course you may, although you may not like the answers...
We two other crew on the FD.
If they see a problem, they speak up, I listen.
A simple concept to understand.
See above reply.
If the idea has merit, it is considered and implemented, depending on the particular situation.
I use it as a learning example.
Don't know what you refer to, here.
I have nothing to do with 'interpersonal skills'...that is another department.
Lets look at line training as a good example.
The new First Officer has a job to do...learn the airplane and the proper technique, as mandated by the company.
I, on the other hand, also have a job to do, to instruct in these techniques and procedures.
We have a limited amount of time to do this, so....I instruct, the new First Officer listens and applies the instructions and techniques in a reasonable manner.
This work out just fine in the vast majority of situations

In our small company now, we have FD crew members whom have been at the job for quite some time, so few problems develop.

Much younger crew, who are perhaps new to airline flying, now take these CRM courses, and are promptly told that 'the old ways' were rubbish.
I, on the other hand, have a completely different idea about this...the 'old ways' (as some like to put it) had many advantages, which quite frankly, CRM 'instructors' wouldn't know anything about...such as crew coordination (mentioned previously) which works just fine, lasts a long time.

Now, back to tailstrikes, and the prevention thereof.
In short, pay attention to what you are doing....and not just pull on the pole, and hope.:rolleyes:

411A, so as to better understand your perspective regarding this subject, how much time do you have in the B777?

None whatsoever, however,....I have adequately described techniques for avoiding tailstrikes on takeoff, and...I have many friends who do have quite a lot of time in 777 aircraft, and they share my thoughts completely.

Airboos airplanes?
Don't know anything about those, and have no desire, either.;)

My opinion...
 

CRM is a great concept and tool, but it is useless without detailed, explicit SOPs. We follow the SOPs....one guy keeps tabs on the other. Both, then, stay out of trouble. On many occasions, good CRM has kept me out of trouble (and the Chief Pilot's Office).

A good F/O is worth his weight in gold.

The problems with CRM that I've experienced is the F/O 'correcting me' when I am, in fact, following the SOP, but he has no idea what he's talking about. I remember one time, the F/O (who demonstrated an attitude on several previous occasions) consistently failed to make required callouts. When I brought this to his attention, he argued with me. So, I asked him to get out his book, so that I could show him....he refused.

Things worked out well for me, however, because the next stop was at a hub/crew base. He suddenly became ill and got off the trip. While he is still a problem child, he's no longer my problem.

CRM, too often, is thought of as making the cockpit a 'happy/clappy' work environment. In fact, it is a management concept that promotes the use of all available resources to achieve a safe and compliant operation.

Complete and correct information and situational awareness are vital to proper decisions. This is where a good F/O comes in handy. On the other hand, however, bad information given to me by the F/O is much worse than no information. That is, if you don't know something, please say so. Don't feed me XXXXXXXX (nonsense), because I listen to my F/Os, and I make decisions based on the information I have.

Just my two cents.....


Fly safe,

PantLoad

Well Bungfai asked a pretty simple question regarding tail strikes in the B777-300 which is a little different animal that the 300ER in that it does not have the semi-levered gear on it. There is more to flying the B777-300 than just "pulling on the pole" and your sugestion that some how old school techniques simply override all that we have learned about ths aircraft sometimes do not apply.

For starters here are some of the ways that you can kiss the tail on the 777 and as I reacall many of these apply to your favorite airplane, the L1011, of which I have more than a few hours as well.

To start in order of occurance:

#1 Missed trimed due to out of CG effects
#2 Miss use of the flight director
#3 Alternate Aft CG applications
#4 Early rotation
#5 Agressive rotation as in pulling on the pole:ooh:

Your CRM comments are somewhat over the top. Based on your stated experience, I think I have you beat and I still learn something from other pilots almost every week. Many of them are younger and have less time, type ratings, etc. but none the less they still are able to teach me something as long as I keep an open mind. :ok:

By the way I have several friends that have flown the SR71, but that hardly qualifies me to comment on that aircraft.:mad:

Are we all saying that...

411A is never right?

Or do we all know far more than him?

Last question Is CRM a big stick to hit people with we don't like the sound of?

It used to be "Its Elf N safety love, They woodent let me do that" (the old stick)

I'm glad we seem to know it all (including 411a)

:E

I don't think 411A is in charge of anything more than ferrying a few L10ll's from boneyard to MRO facilities these days. Certainly not any traditional airline work. Just dig up a crew (no pun inteneded), and move this old Lockheed to some place better.:E

Bungfai
 

That KE at NRT was a 773 not 77W...

What is a 77W.:confused: Certainly not a Boeing term.

77W IATA code for the 777-300ER.

Leo

77W is the IATA code for the 777-300ER.

Leo

I'm afraid 411A has it right.
I have not infrequently discussed the need with copilots in conditions of strong crosswind, contaminated runways or poor visibility that the rotation must be completely standard and at a normal rate. Then I have been startled when the wretch wrenches the thing off the runway 'in an attempt to get airborne quickly and cleanly'. It doesn't work on a large, heavy aeroplane, and seemingly, no amount of discussion gets the point through. It is only when they see a take-off rotate up close of a large heavy type that the lesson gets through some numbskulls!
It is apparent that is overwhelmingly the most likely cause here. Inexperience, lack of thought, lack of understanding.

is rotation technique not in 'ace the stupid pilot's interview':E?

well it's in davies book;)

In spades, sadly.:{
When young'uns start listening to more experienced folks, instead of ....'never mind the facts, my mind is made up'... will it change.

In the meantime, heavy weight takeoffs are mine...except, if the First Officer knows what he is doing.
Fortunately, my present one does...an absolute pleasure to fly with.
As I have just renewed my TRE/IRE, he will be promoted to the LHS, shortly.
Then, would I put my family on his flight? Remembering, the Commander is in charge, not others...:ugh:
Yup, sure would.
At age 29, he is a class act.
A superb pilot....and futuire Commander.

NB.
He has also flown the A320...I will not repeat what he has to say about this aeroplane....as it is nothing to write home about.
Using clean language.:{

I've found the Airbus 320s and 330s far better aircraft to fly than the 1011's.
Does that make me controversial or what!
Times have moved on 30 years.
Get with it

Maybe, maybe not.
In some air carriers, the 'older ones' are still in charge, and will continuaually turn the screws accordingly.
Shape up...or ship out.
Makes no difference to me....the pay is the same.
Howsomever...there are exceptions.
For these guys, rapid promotion, and they are welcome.:ok:

In my limited L-1011 experance, 32 years on the program and 22 of those years in customer support, I worked or assisted in 7 or 8 L-1011 tail drags. Not one of them was on takeoff they just didn't happen.

I agree that most of the L1011 tail strikes at Delta at least were during landings. Holding off for that smooth touch down had consequences.

Of all the tail strikes in the past 20+ years, how many were when the F/O was flying? Probably less than half. Good grief, some of you guys make it sound like ONLY the Capt/Commander is capable of handling the BIG jets. Get a grip on your selves as this is simply a figment of your over active imagination.

Not wanting to stir this up any more, but shouldn't incorrect rotation on takeoff by any crew member be completely sorted out in the simulator? I would have thought that special attention to such things would be part of the training & testing programme on an aircraft such as the 777, A240, etc as they have very long fuselages.

Proper rotation techniques are taught in initail training but like everything else, events beyond the norm do happen. I'll repeat it again just incase you missed the first post. "Pulling on the pole" is usually not the reason for a tail strike. There are many other issues that come into play.

I'm well aware of all the factors, I flew 747's for a decade.

Those little wheels they used to fit at the back would still help, you know:ouch:!

Watched the Vid, and it is not an ER unless Korean like putting RR decals on the side of GE motors.

Will say it again, the ER will not let you scrape the tail.

halas

Well, for what I read, IMO, a flight with Capt. 411A would be quite a learning experience, certainly you have a personality that somehow resembles that of one my favourite instructors back in flight school. Surely the best flights were made with that instructor.

You might remember an Colombian MD-82 crashing nearby the Colombia-Venezuela border some 4 years ago...he almost had to fly that flight. He flew the airplane from Medellín (Home base) to Panama City, and stayed in a hotel there...the next leg, Panama City to Martinique was the one that crashed.

He was the one who once in my very early hours said to me while landing at MDE "If you cover the runway with the airplane nose, it's time to go-around". Don't know if such an "adagio" applies to other types...