Which is why that is what is written on the crib sheet on my yoke clip. An extract of the essentials unique to this approach, everything else is pretty much standard stuff.

Say what?!?

The procedure turn from the IBZ NDB IAF is clearly depicted on the profile! How can you say there is no procedure turn published, then say there is a procedure turn that is a racetrack?!?

A procedure turn and "racetrack" are two different things... look it up to avoid ambiguities in the f/d! :ok:

On that side of the pond maybe, not over here.

Procedure turn vs procedure hold for coarse reversal.

Over here there a 3 types of PT. The standard procedure turn where pretty much anything goes, in order to effect a course reversal. Then two that must be flown exactly as depicted, the teardrop (now rarely used) and the holding pattern.

to dispel apprehensions there are two IAF therefore two possible approaches:

a straight in one from 20 DME depicted as IAF
race track on over IBZ NDB depicted as well as IAF. IT'S a RACETRACK

dependable on the IAF clearance one will have to fly the procedure accordingly.

Cheers.:ok:

Would I have any questions?
 

Why have you not set the course bars yet? Oh - forgot? Have you mis-dialled that frequency - or did you intend that? I haven't been here before, how are we joining the approach? Vectors? The full racetrack procedure? If we are flying an arc, how do you intend to do that? Use a VOR, then change frequencies for the ILS? If we have to hold for traffic or weather, where will you do that? How much holding fuel do we have? At what point in time will you want to divert? And to where? If we get a windshear warning, will you immediately go-around, or will you assess the performance first? :rolleyes:

None of this is on the chart, 411A - it's why professionals brief. :hmm:

An example:

The aircraft hit the ridge in clear air, and all three aboard (whom I knew) were killed.

I would have thought the way this thread discussion has progressed itself illustrates the need for a concise professional briefing at top-of-descent, prior to starting the approach.

In my opinion, Bealzebub and fireflybob both have it about right.

I would like to think that 411A was being tongue-in-cheek when he made his first reply ... but maybe he wasn't ...

Ibiza LOC/ILS 24 is not a straightforward approach and, for example, at least some mention of which navaids are to be used to define which waypoints, the limits to be used and the go-around procedure would be both sensible and professional. Weather and terrain should also be ingredients to the brief. I am not in favour of verbose briefings but neither is it appropriate just to That is just not a professional attitude in my book - and especially so if there is only one chart available, which is itself poor aviation practice for a multi-crew environment.


JD
:)

Those of use who have been playing in the sandpit for a while know that 411A

(a) has quite a bit of front seat experience behind him, and

(b) is VERY good at throwing a comment or two into a thread in a manner well calculated to stir up a vigorous discussion .. such as this one.

I would be very surprised if his earlier comment were not somewhat tongue in cheek.

Quite correct.

Especially, when I see this...
Yes, we always do a brief discussion about the approach, well before top of descent (if possible), however....I have seen it time and again, both on line checks and in the simulator (especially the former) where there is a last minute runway change, or a different STAR announced at the last minute, or, once having been assured of radar vectors, then assigned a totally different procedure altogether etc....
that it is far better to actually be slightly more adaptable with ones planning, instead of going on and on and on (endlessly)...first I will do this, then I will do that)...and in the end, the crew does none of the original plan, changes thrown at them at the last minute, more shuffling of papers, missed ATC calles because...more briefings infinitum....IF a professional crew cannot both look at an approach chart, see the quite obvious, select navaids without having to verbalise every step....then I would suggest that they have no business in the pointy end.
200 hour wonders in the RHS excepted, with an experienced training Captain to guide the new First Officer accordingly.


Then we have...
This all comes as rather second nature to experienced crew (and that is all we hire in the first place) so....the respective poster I expect would simply not fit into our organisation...fortunately:)

In short, all this verbal chatter is, in many cases, totally unnecessary...after all, it is a brief....so keep it just that way...brief.
It is not an apollo moon landing.:rolleyes:

Oh yes, we don't call it a briefing, it is called in our outfit....crew co-ordination... an old TWA expression that has worked for me, quite successfully thank you very much, for more than thirty years.

In closing, Harry Truman said it best....'If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen'.

I think it is a good question of the first poster. Somehow i think a briefing should be like the word itself: BRIEF!! Some charts are really complicated and when i do a whole briefing of the plate, i'm sometimes wondering if the guy next to me still knows after 5 min what i've said.

Kind of agree with the previous comment - Interesting that some of the posters here had misread the plate i.e. not as simple as it looks so it's worth a decent brief if you haven't been before. And then expect vectors for a straight in final.

Oh, and check that what's in your FMC actually coincides with what's on your plate! Too often missed.

When you have flown for a decent amount of time, you will know that nothing can be relied on as "second nature". All of those questions arose from errors I have seen on the line over the last 20 years or so. :rolleyes:

So, airvana - what would YOU pick out as important? Oh, and you have not told us the weather, which does affect the brief.

Have to disagree entirely.

Yup, works good, lasts a long time.

Or... approaching JED, ATIS says 34C for landing.
Standard crew co-ordination for 34C, 'localizer ....., DA 226, missed approach....., standard calls.'

Now, having flown into JED since 1981, sometimes 34L is assigned at the last minute.
So, 'localizer....., DA 213, missed approach...., standard calls'.

Done.:ok:

Clearly this would not be sufficient for Checkboard...that's why he doesn't work for us, nor is it likely would he would be invited.:)

Would you guys hold the posts for a minute, I need to go to the kitchen for some more pop corn!:D

... 411A I do notice that embarrassment is forcing your "second nature" brief to become more complex with each post. ;)

Not 'embarrassment'...sometimes it's necessary to wake to other guy up.:}

Adverse-Bump stop acting like a total cock, have you flown into IBZ yet?

I have with one of the posters here and have to say we didnt say "standard brief" to each other!

The reason being, it was my first time into IBZ as opposed to LGW for the second time today and 12 times this week, no offence :}