A320 slats/flaps jammed
hi,
who knows why with slats/flaps problems, using QRH 2.04, we don't come back to managed speed when at Vapp calculated with QRH 2.31/32, loosing GS mini |
I don't know, I am guessing wildly:
Maybe because managed would keep the speed command for the autothrust at the respective greendot, S, F on your speed tape, but actually you are flying a speed below that (Vref + xx, acc. QRH)... Nic |
Look up your ATHR logic. In Managed speed the ATHR will give a thrust setting for the flap lever position. With Slats/Flaps locked will you get the normal config when you move the lever? Better to be in Selected speed as you now control what speed the ATHR will command - less likelihood of the ATHR giving an inappropriate speed for your actual slats/flaps configuration. The Go Around can be interesting in such situations.
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sorry but the question is : managed speed after all flaps/slats extended. the Vapp selected we use is the one we calculated and entered in MCDU. if we go managed, same target speed but in managed + possibly the GS mini function (why not here)
for the GO around, it is quite clear. the selected speed reverts to managed and fly the vapp calculated by you and inserted in the MCDU still need a suggestion then ! |
'flaps/slats jammed' GA procedure
can anybody help with avioneta's comment?
I too would like to know: 1. managed speed after all flaps/slats extended. the Vapp selected we use is the one we calculated and entered in MCDU. if we go managed, same target speed but in managed + possibly the GS mini function. Do we remain in SEL, or do we go Managed? 2. Do we do Go around with speed SEL? G.Around with the same speed as Vapp? What is exact procedure for Go Around in this case if somebody could help please.?? 3. As I understand When flaps/slats are deployed the red barber pole = VFE/VMO. I don't understand what is the difference between VFE and Max Speed (for flaps/slats jammed). Which one does the red barber pole indicate? 4. VFE is shown on PFD according to lever position? Overspeed is according to actual flap/slat position? Where is Overspeed shown on PFD? What is difference between VFE and Overspeed in this case? Bit of confusion with differences between VFE, Max Speed and Overspeed Many thanks for your help guys! C4 |
Come do it for real............an interesting days work!!:{
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w...U/12db3ac4.jpg |
avionetta
for the GO around, it is quite clear. the selected speed reverts to managed |
1. managed speed after all flaps/slats extended. the Vapp selected we use is the one we calculated and entered in MCDU. if we go managed, same target speed but in managed + possibly the GS mini function. Do we remain in SEL, or do we go Managed? 2. Do we do Go around with speed SEL? G.Around with the same speed as Vapp? What is exact procedure for Go Around in this case if somebody could help please.?? 3. As I understand When flaps/slats are deployed the red barber pole = VFE/VMO. I don't understand what is the difference between VFE and Max Speed (for flaps/slats jammed). Which one does the red barber pole indicate? 4. VFE is shown on PFD according to lever position? Overspeed is according to actual flap/slat position? Where is Overspeed shown on PFD? What is difference between VFE and Overspeed in this case? Cheers. |
If you study the procedure and you have a flaps and/or slats jam one day in approach you may carry out all the procedures and land without having to hold for thouble shooting. If you don't, you have to discontinue approach and hold.
- When you have the ECAM caution, pull speed (so your speed doesn't get too low for the actual flap/slat config). But don't rush in doing this. Keep in mind that VLS remains meaningful all the way. - Then look at the ECAM and if it is a locked or the recycle doesn't work, ask the PNF to clear the page. (you have a MAX SPEED line but you want to slow down, not to accelerate) - Then select VFE next -5 kt. If it is not displayed you know it by heart, or you can find it in the placard. - Then review STS page: you have to select GPWS FLAP mode OFF or FLAP 3, accordingly, and note the delta VREF. - When speed is VFE nex- 5 kt, select next configuration - repeat until you have CONF 3, then select VAPP (or manage, if you like, but you need to insert VAPP in the PERF page. I prefer not having any GS mini interfering, specially in short runways. Selected speed is recommended in the FCOM, anyway. - then calculate VMAX (different than the PFD barber pole in some cases). You can note it or set it (-10 kt) as a SPD CSTR in the GA. - plan the Go around (diversion or circuit). For circuit, always keep the landing configuration. For diversion, clean up, except for flaps>1 jam, where you also keep config. - finally, calculate landing distance (normally not limiting in the "typical" runways) Go around if you don't have acomplished all these before 1000 ft, but don't go around without calculating VMAX. you can always trust VLS and the aural overspeed warning. VMAX (VFE) can be wrong (slower than real) Disconnect AP above 500 ft. in case of go around, do it smoothly and don't change configuration. With no slats or no flaps you can have stall warning if you are too brisk. |
Microburst2002,
If you study the procedure and you have a flaps and/or slats jam one day in approach you may carry out all the procedures and land without having to hold for thouble shooting. If you don't, you have to discontinue approach and hold. Just my 2 cents. |
You are right
I apply the 1000 rule. If by then you haven't done everything (including GA considerations and landing distance) then go around. I have practiced it a few times in the sim and I had it in real life long time ago. Knowing that you can rely on VLS makes it very simple. Just fly VFE next -5 and move the lever until 3, then VAPP, then GPWS, then calculate VMAX-10 for GA accel. If the failure occurs early (at conf 1 selection) there is plenty of time. If it occurs later, there is less time, but also the problem is milder. but i agree with you. If there is plenty of fuel, I don't have the drill so '"fresh", it is IMC, etc... there is no reason not to take some time and make sure everything is OK and double checked before shooting the approach. |
1. GS speed Mini is not an issue due to the relatively high approach speeds generated by configuration abnormals.
2. Selected Speed will not automatically revert to managed speed on Go Around. 3. Go Around Speeds are published in the QRH for the various abnormal configurations and should be prebriefed for a possible Go Around and flown in Selected mode (dialed up during Go Around). http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/u...9/bdab746d.jpg |
Trust me Im Staff,
2. Selected Speed will not automatically revert to managed speed on Go Around. Cheers. |
Bearcat?
"ENG TYPE DISAGREE"? I'd really like to ask how an A/C with that kind of status msg wound up in flt? Or was it a sim?
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If GO AROUND mode is activated upon advancing the thrust levers to TOGA (which occurs in most models even in case of a full AP/FD OFF, save those without the retrofit) then speed becomes managed.
If I have problems with an elevator, or ailerons, I would gladly use GS mini and increased speeds. In a no flap no slat scenario, however, I would stick to a selected ECAM VAPP (conf full perf page VLS plus ECAM delta vref). Airbus recommends selected speed (see QRH procedure). Of course, if I see VLS above my target speed (heavier thand loadsheet) I will respect VLS anyway. Actually the whole thing is very easy. When the lock occurs, set progressively VFE next -5 kt and set next config, then select VLS, then calculate VMAX-10 for the GA, then verify landing distance is not a problem. done. In a flaps jammed between 2 and 3 I could insert VAPP and manage speed during approach to get benefit from GS mini. Landing distance is not an issue. |
MB2002 and avionetta...
If GO AROUND mode is activated upon advancing the thrust levers to TOGA .... then speed becomes managed. |
Another good reason for using Selected speed is .. on a go-around the a/c will not accelerate automatically at Aa but will remain at the pilot-selected speed.
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I say again .. where in FCOM does it say this? Another good reason for using Selected speed is .. on a go-around the a/c will not accelerate automatically at Aa but will remain at the pilot-selected speed. Cheers. |
"ENG TYPE DISAGREE"? I'd really like to ask how an A/C with that kind of status msg wound up in flt? Or was it a sim? |
The more i think about it, the simpler it gets.
consider a total flaps and slats fault (flap lever control sensor unit fault, for instance). You can reduce speed right away to VLS and set the lever to conf 2 and 3 at VFE next -5 kt. This will be symbolic, since nothing happens. In the mean time, PNF can calculate landing distance. VMAX is unlimited, because you are clean. so in the end it is very straight forward: fly VLS and land the airplane. In any other case you have better conditions, and you can also fly any speed above VLS. sometimes flap lever movement will be symbolic, sometimes it will not, but in the end it all comes to "fly VLS and land". |
it was the real deal |
"consider a total flaps and slats fault (flap lever control sensor unit fault, for instance). You can reduce speed right away to VLS and set the lever to conf 2 and 3 at VFE next -5 kt. This will be symbolic, since nothing happens. In the mean time, PNF can calculate landing distance. VMAX is unlimited, because you are clean" Hi Microburst, I'll have to take issue with the above statement. In the event you experience, like you say a flap and slat fault, you do not set the flap lever to config 2 or 3, but according to the STATUS Page and QRH, set the Flap handle to Config 1 unless I misunderstood your example to mean other config abnormalities. Additionally, you cannot reduce speed to Full Flap VLS in the Clean configuration, but must honor the +60 kt additive + VLS for your Approach speed (+50 kts for Landing) Airbus recommends to fly this type of no flap no slat approach in Selected Speed. Selected speed during a configuration abnormal packs such a high energy state that GS mini functions are not relevant at this point. See attached Training Manual documents from Airbus. Likewise, whether the Selected Approach speed transitions to Managed on a Go Around is irrelevant (Im in the sim tomorrow and will find out) as Airbus recommends that the speed be selected and acclerated manually in order to have better control of your speed during accleration for your configuration. Again, reference below Training Manual docs from Airbus. rgds, TMIS http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/u...9/dddd652b.jpg http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/u...9/887f6f98.jpg http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/u...9/8529d4d7.jpg http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/u...9/17ebff5b.jpg |
agree with all that (selected recommended, delta Vref...)
when i say fly VLS I mean PFD VLS (which is the same as VREF conf full plus delta vref, I think) you are right about slats and flaps at zero: use flap 1, it says. BUt nothing happens if you select up to flap 3 on the spur of the moment, since the result is the same (nothing moves). So if you are in a very bad scenario typical of a command training simulator where they push you to the limits (such as flaps and slats jam with an engine failure and smoke in the cockpit and incapacitade FO and...), it is most useful to know that all you have to do is fly the VLS (PFD) and land, and that normaly you will have enough runway. |
I-2021
If you insert a speed constraint in the missed approach routing the aircraft will accelerate to that speed, so you can keep speed managed, i.e you need to fly 175 kt for go around, then insert 175 kt as a speed costraint. If you pull speed during the go around you exit the SRS and you go in OP CLB. See FCOM 4.05.80 |
Yep
you can use it as a reminder, though What brings me another question I haven't satisfactorily found the answer: in a go around, at acceleration altitude what mode becomes active (if we are in NAV)? OP CLB or CLB? I found discrepancies in the FCOMs. 4.05.80 p1 and 1.22.30 p1 says no, but then 1.22.30 p7 graph seems to say yes. ok, now i see what happens: the mode is armed (1.22.30 p20 and p7 graph) but it will not engage unless we get out of go around phase (other references). kind of tricky, isn't it... it is something to bear in mind in a missed approach with an at altitude constraint and a further higher altitude. In those cases we sould either select the constraint as the "go around altitude" or, alternatively, select the final altitude but then we must not forget to activate approach early during the go around. I think the first method is better. |
forget that
ok, now i see what happens: the mode is armed (1.22.30 p20 and p7 graph) but it will not engage unless we get out of go around phase (other references). kind of tricky, isn't it... it is something to bear in mind in a missed approach with an at altitude constraint and a further higher altitude. In those cases we sould either select the constraint as the "go around altitude" or, alternatively, select the final altitude but then we must not forget to activate approach early during the go around. I think the first method is better. |
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