Communication failure after takeoff
 

Hi,

If we have a communication failure right after takeoff, do we have to land or do we proceed according to the Jeppesen emergency procedure? i mean is it reasonable to go to destination via flight plan route?

Thanks in advance.

Follow the SID/DP.
The general reason for no answer from departure control is that they are having a tea break...:}
Or in Africa, gone to sleep.:rolleyes:

Are you talking radio failure, or are you talking about the lack of two way communication?

Are you visual?
 

The regulations - which vary slightly depending on where you are, although the principles are generally the same - say "If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR conditions are encountered after the failure, each pilot shall continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable."

There are various allowances for the important difference between 'land as soon as practicable' and 'as soon as possible', but it might be hard to explain how you conducted your entire trip without ever finding visual conditions. In particular, if you have not yet climbed into the clouds on the departure, and there is no compelling objection to just landing again, the expectation would be that you fly the visual circuit back to your runway of departure, and look out for light signals from the tower.

i am talking about radio failure

And as far as i understand from CJ Driver's message, land if in VMC, else continue to destination. right?

hmm, so if I am just airborne from a very busy e.g. LHR, do I just return to the landing runway ( via ILS or whatever approach ) ? Would definitively cause a big mess in their neatly arranged stack of approaching aircraft...just thinking aloud here...

Do a search on 'aircraft, radio failure after departure'. Oz version (typical) below -
1.8 TOTAL RADIO COMMUNICATION FAILURE PROCEDURES
1.8.1 If total radio communication failure occurs in VMC during daylight hours, the pilot shall continue to fly in VMC and land at the most suitable aerodrome. If it occurs in VMC during the hours of darkness (between sunset and sunrise) action shall be taken in accordance with para 1.8.2 below.
1.8.2 If total radio communication failure occurs in IMC, ATC action is based on the assumption that the aircraft will continue to its destination and if unable to land, will proceed to its nominated alternate. Separation standards will be increased and airspace reserved accordingly. (see Appendices ‘A’ and
‘B’ , pages ENR 1.6-9 and 1.6-11).
1.8.3 In IMC, or if unable to maintain VFR, the pilot shall either leave or avoid controlled airspace and areas of dense traffic and establish VFR operation or, alternatively, shall:
a) Proceed according to the current flight plan, at the last assigned flight level, to the clearance limit and thereafter at the flight plan level.
b) Arrive at the destination as close as possible to ETA.
c) Commence descent as close as possible to EAT (or ETA if no EAT has been acknowledged).
Note:
1) Aircraft are to follow the established radio failure procedures as laid down by the respective airports.
2) During this 30 minute period ATC will reserve the airspace at the aircraft’s flight level and below. At the expiry of this period with the concurrence of other users normal operations will resume.
1.8.4 In all cases, the pilot shall contact ATC as soon as possible after landing.

Hi

I'm presuming we are talking about a total radio communications failure,i.e no transsmittion nor reception..and since most of us here would be flying on an IFR flight plan..i would follow the procedure laid out for the country and airport/TMA zone in the radio comms failure in the jeppesen EMERGENCY section and continue to my destination
The radio communication failure procedures are constructed to give the ATC controllers time to clear the airspace that the aircraft with the comms failure is occupying/will occupy of traffic and give that aircraft a clear run to destination..plus a buffer of 30 min at the expected ETA.
Now while total comms failure is a highly stressful experience..it is not a life threatening one
Going back to land without coordination with ATC or any deviation from the established lost comms procedures at a major international airport might well prove to be a life threatning one to self and others..not to mention the utter havoc genrated at said airport
i ask if any of you seriously believe that a fast jet can be maneuvered in a manner to avoid other jets out there while going back for an immediate landing at say...heathrow,schipoll..frankfurt.
Also i wish for the input of ATC controllers about their experiences/expectations about this and similar cases

Merry christmas and a happy new year to all

<<i ask if any of you seriously believe that a fast jet can be maneuvered in a manner to avoid other jets out there while going back for an immediate landing at say...heathrow,schipoll..frankfurt.>>

But jets aren't normally "fast" in such circumstances. I'm confident that ATC could handle such a situation; well they certainly could at Heathrow. Been there, done it, got the tee-shirt.....

As to the original question - standard procedures for such events are laid down in the AIP.

Not being a pilot, just logical thinking. May not the f/d crew use a mobile phone to inform the powers that be of this situation?

Daz

Very logical, infact I used to have a crib sheet of national ATS centres switchboards should such an emergency exist - i'll see if i can find it.

Horgy

I'm wondering what would happen if say your flying from LHR-HKG and just before making your first contact with Russian airspace you have a total radio failure? What would you do? I'm quite sure the Russians would panic if you aren't replying maybe send in their Migs to intercept you?:eek:

there is something that you never mention and is very important, you need to set your transponder to 7600 and with this you are sending an alert of your situation and atc will take provitions of your situation

I have had just that.

The outcome was that the SatPhone went bong, and London Ops asked if all was well. They then relayed a message to Khabarovsk (sp) via the phone, as the Russian controller had phoned London to ask BA to phone me.....

With some messing about with switches we sorted communications out and we continued on our way.

I believe (top of my head before off on duty) Continue SID or last assigned heading/altitude(FL) for 7 mins, squawk 7600 then climb to flight plan cruise level, flight plan route to destination, IAF, descend, fly approach within EAT, land.

Although different countries will have different procedures enroute and on arrival, however we would have to read the jeppy on the way.

As for returning to airfield of departure? No unless you had to.

L337, finger trouble or equipment failure? You don't say.

My Bold

Wouldn't be a problem with the aircraft I fly. We usually depart below MLW. What about a 747 or other heavy which would be decidedly above MLW were it to return VFR, after departure close to MTOM. Surely this would be a case for continue regardless? What are the other options?

RIX

747 can dump fuel or land overweight. Overweight landings as long as they're smooth are no big deal.

Land if in VMC, else continue to destination.
I do confirm. Basically, apply the rule.

ok guys...

so if you take off from london do you just do a circuit and land?
or do you continue on the SID and then return back for the appraoch via LAM?
and lets suppose your flight is abt ten hours long .....

Communication failure after takeoff
 

At some airports ( I am almost sure that Heathrow is one ) there is a Radio Failure procedure on the SID.

SIDs and STARs
 

In the historics of ATC, the SIDs Standard Instrument Departures were initially published as "loss of communication procedure" and, in practice, it was somewhat rare, particularly in the USA, to navigate a SID. Once ATC gives you a vector, they give you a new clearance, it cancels your SID clearance, unless they clear you back to the SID...
xxx
One thing I always did, was to program the "exit point" of the SID as the INS waypoint 9 (the last one on old C-IVs) as I expected departure to initially give us vectors/climbs then eventually "direct to" that point...
xxx
A few years later, came the STARs arrival routes... same story. So in all practicalities, SIDs and STARs were only flown in case of loss of communications. I remember often being cleared from JFK (when passing FL230) "direct to" HECTOR , the initial STAR entry for LAX arrival profile descent.
xxx
Then I noticed that Europeans got into the SIDs/STARs, and found it quite convenient to issue the full SID/STAR profile, less work for them. No vectors, no climbs or descents bla bla... just go as published, and let us sip our tea, don't bother us. London became notorious for that, with my PanAm soul, (and opinion)... soon followed by Frankfurt, them Paris and Amsterdam. Complicated zig-zags. So in Europe, they sit on their hands... In the USA, they still expediate with vectors.
xxx
Loss of communications if often NOT A LOSS of communications. It is ATCO that gives you an erroneous frequency change, or you, not copying the correct frequency to dial with your fat fingers twisting knobs. Thanks God for the A/B switch on your VHF COMM to get back to your previous frequency to say a "CONFIRM 123.4...?"... With the old radios, I recall "loss of comm" and unable to recall what the previous one was - and going on 121.5 with my tail between my hind legs to query "who to speak to now"...
xxx
Been there, done that... you guys will too.
Arf, has my dog says...
:}
Happy contrails

london doesnt have a lost comm procedure for the SID.
only for the approache it mentions a lost comm procedure...

Everything about communication failure is written there in the UK AIP :

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2011-04-07.pdf

Look for ENR 1.1.3 — GENERAL FLIGHT PROCEDURES
Paragraph 4.2 Radio Failure Procedures For Pilots

Here is an abstract of what they say :


(b) (i) Maintain, for a period of 7 minutes, the current speed and last assigned level or minimum safe altitude, if this higher.The period of seven minutes begins when the transponder is set to 7600 and this should be done as soon as the pilot has detected communications failure.

(ii) If failure occurs when the aircraft is following a notified departure procedure such as a Standard Instrument Departure (SID) and clearance to climb, or re-routing instructions have not been given, the procedure should be flown in accordance with the published lateral track and vertical profile, including any stepped climbs, until the last position, fix, or waypoint, published for the procedure, has been reached. Then, for that part of the period of 7 minutes that may remain, maintain the current speed and last assigned level or minimum safe altitude, if this higher.

(iii) Thereafter, adjust the speed and level in accordance with the current flight plan and continue the flight to the appropriate designated landing aid serving the destination aerodrome. Attempt to transmit position reports and altitude/flight level on the appropriate frequency when over routine reporting points.

(c) (i) If being radar vectored, or proceeding offset according to RNAV, without a specified limit, continue in accordance with ATC instructions last acknowledged for 3 minutes only and then proceed in the most direct manner possible to rejoin the current flight planned route. Pilots should ensure that they remain at, or above, the minimum safe altitude