Aircraft (airliners) types that do not dump fuel?
 

Can anybody tell me which of the major types of airliners cannot dump any fuel? Had an A310 the other day and pilot stated that he could not dump fuel. I believe the B767 as well? I know the B747 can, but what about others like the IL76/86/124/225 or the MD9o etc? B707/727/737/757/777? A320/330/340/380? If you know of any types that cannot dump fuel, would appreciate if you can let me know. I would assume that all, if not most very heavy types would be able to dump fuel to reduce weights below Max landing weight.
Thanks
fart

B757 - 200 and B767 - 200 can`t, but it`s no major drama as far as I know regarding an overweight landing other than the obligatory overweight landing maint. inspection. I guess Boeing builds `em good and strong.....

Probably not the answer that you wanted.... but here it is anyway.

Sec. 25.1001 Fuel jettisoning system.

(a) A fuel jettisoning system must be installed on each airplane unless it
is shown that the airplane meets the climb requirements of Secs. 25.119 and
25.121(d) at maximum takeoff weight, less the actual or computed weight of
fuel necessary for a 15-minute flight comprised of a takeoff, go-around, and
landing at the airport of departure with the airplane configuration, speed,
power, and thrust the same as that used in meeting the applicable takeoff,
approach, and landing climb performance requirements of this part.

F100 cant but it has a overweight landing proc.

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dv8 http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/cool6.gif

Boeing 707 and 727's can dump their fuel. A320 can't but its max landing weight is the same as its max take off weight, as long as it doesn't exceed 360ft/min vertical speed.



[This message has been edited by Dozy Bell (edited 16 June 2001).]

320 family cabn indeed land at max to but does have a lower landing weight. 330 can not dump but the 340 can

I am still surprised at a few like the A330 for instance and thanks Mutt, it is good to know. Keep sending info if you would please and thank you very much so far for the responses.
Cheers
Fart

Dozy Bell:

A320 can't but its max landing weight is the same as its max take off weight

Total rubbish old chap: A320 Max T/O=73500KG
Max Ldg=64500KG. Thats nine tons (3 hours) of fuel to burn until you can land without an overweight landing check.

The Airbus' maintenance manual will most likely state that unless your ROD is above 360ft/min it is not classified as an overweight landing. Hence no inspection, still some of them have fuel dump capability.

B737 can not dump.

Asked an A330 driver last night about fuel dumping capability and he said that the A330 can indeed dump fuel at a rate of a ton per minute , so to dump 30 000Kg of fuel would take 30 min etc.

Keep sending info and thanks for replies.
Cheers
Fart

Though not an airliner, some versions of the Sikorsky S-61 have fuel dump capability.

The Airbus A-300/310 can't dump fuel either.

prez, the old A300 B4 can dump fuel.

6000pic, not sure which version of the 767-200
you are referring to but the 767-200ER I fly
most certainly can dump fuel.

A300B4 can dump fuel.
A300-600 can not.

Of the jets that I have flown:

B733 cannot
BA146 cannot
WW24 (Westwind) can

..Oh yeah, and I flew a Cherokee six once that could dump the tip tanks, but that was because the fiberglass had perished http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/redface.gif

The 767 and A300/310/330 have the option for fueldump, weather it has been fitted on the AC depends on the airlines original request ($$ ofcourse).
Don't know about other types though.
rgds FS

A fuel dumping system is offered for the A330 but to my understanding no airline has ever ordered it. Anybody seen it on an A330?

717-200 can not dump fuel

The A330-200 has fuel dump as standard. Max take off weight is 230000kg, max landing weight is 180000kg. However you can land at max take off weight in an emergency.

Just to advise that of A300's in service only the B2 does not have fuel dump capability ( unlike the B4 it has no centre tank). Fuel dump only required if max landing weight is exceeded by MAUW , minus GA fuel ,'i think'!


[This message has been edited by ragspanner (edited 20 June 2001).]

longarm-The A330's in my company do not have fuel dumping capability, it is however mentioned in the manual as optional equipment (the little arrow with a star inside). Someone also told me that fueldumping hasn't been ordered by anybody since an overweight landing is not a "huge" problem.
If you have seen dumpvalves fitted in an A330 I would be interested to know what airline has these?

As far as I am aware, the B757 doesnt need to. (It can't anyway.) I heard from a few Training Captains that it was designed to land at Max Take Off Weight! It was designed structuraly to take it. :)

Gosh! That's a lot of discussion on a fairly straightforward thing.
The max. landing weight of an airplane is the max. wt. at which it can do series of landings (without any special inspections).
For an odd landing, the airplane may be permitted to land with a weight higher than the max. landing weight, up to the max. take off weight. Usually, penalties are imposed, like a max. rate of descent, or a max. gradient on touch down, followed by a 'heavy landing' inspection.(different from the 'hard landing' - that's what you and I do )
In case the airplane is permitted the overweight landing upto the max. take off weight, then there is no requirement to have a fuel dumping system. However, if the overweight landing is permitted to less than the max. allowable take off weight, then a fuel dumping system must be in place.
That is the reason why smaller versions of the same generic type may not have a fuel dumping system, whereas the heavier versions may have one installed.
I hope this satisfies all.

Sorry but got lost with the "permitted" bit.
If you are going downhill then the weight is acedemic !!!

Some maintenance manuals have two inspection procedures for heavy landin or overweight landing. Bearing in mind a "bad" hard landing is more onerous than a "good" overweight one !!

L-1011s CAN dump fuel.

Max Angle

Please refer to Airbus A320 maintenance manual 05-51-11-601. As you will see you can land at mtow under 360ft/min v/s without an overweight landing check being carried out!
If you are not sure, ask an engineer. :)

Re the 320 and landing at under 360/ft min vertical speed does anyone know how we can access this information after we have landed to see what vs we had at landing ? Obviously short of one of us remaining heads in during the landing ?

OLBA18,

If you have exceeded 360fpm at more than MLW the system will produce a "load report" automatically along with the post flight report. It also produces one for a heavy landing so if you bury one check the report. You can also call it up manually.

Dozy Bell,

Yes, I was aware of the 360fpm treshold, I guess what I should have said was "three hours of fuel to burn to avoid an overweight landing". We are only allowed to do one in an emergency situation so if you have an engine failure after take off then it's quite OK but if you have a minor failure that the company don't want you to take down route all you can do is burn it off. The other problem with no fuel dump is being forced into high speed, high energy landings with a nasty tech. problem such as shot hydraulics. A heavy 737 or A320/1 with little or no flaps and duff brakes takes a lot of stopping from 160kts.

fart, that 330 driver was doing the dumping ,not the a/c.
330 cannot dump, can land at max t/o wt, maintenence action post inspection depends on sink rate at t/d, or obvious damage.
you lose a set of tyres ,wheels, brakes etc, of course.

Glue ball,

As someone mentioned although a particular aircraft may have fuel dump some operators elected not to have it installed.
Fuel dump was basically a US system even back to DC4 and DC6 that had fuel dump.
Most UK manufactured aircraft did not have it and basically if you had to land in an emergency you probably didn't have time to dump fuel was their approach.
On aircraft like DC10 and L1011 the system was available but some UK operators didn't take it as it was another system to get certififed by the CAA and another system to maintain.

It would appear from the posts that Airbus (JAA ) do not have a physical requirement for the system and it is all hidden by the descent rate figures.

If I missed it somewhere, my apologies, but it seems that the structural implications of MLW have been overlooked - except by the inference contained in references to reduced vertical impact velocities.

It seems to me that if the operation is not faced with a significant emergency situation then one is obligated to dump/burn off to, or below, MLW. If this is not done the AFM limit is exceeded and that is a lawyer's goldmine in anyone's language.

The only exception to this would be if the AFM prescribes, or the relevant Regulator permits, circumstances where an overweight landing is acceptable for a planned operation.

It is useful to recall that the MLW is based on a number of design criteria, including structural, performance and handling matters.

Now I may be out of order here, as I don't have access to the referenced maintenance documents. However, unless the AFM permits planned overweight landings, I would be very surprised, indeed, if the MM "approves" such procedures. I would expect to see something along the lines of .. "if an overweight landing has been made, then, if such and such a weight or such and such an impact velocity, is exceeded, then certain things have to be done ..."

If the design is predicated on intentional landing at the MTOW, then the AFM would prescribe the MLW to be equal to the MTOW. For the life of me I can't bring to mind any reason why this would not be the case. Trimming the MTOW, on the other hand, has been done in the past to better match the DOCs (ATC charges and the like) to the operation.

[This message has been edited by john_tullamarine (edited 28 June 2001).]

Has anyone considered the fact that twin engine T category A/C must demonstrate the
capability to fly at MGW (AUW) on one engine?

I think you'll find that three and four engine A/C cannot maintain altitude with two
engines out at MGW, hence the necessity to
be able to dump fuel in such circumstances.
The point is moot in the case of a twin loosing both engines.

Cheer, EBD

The BE-1900 dumps pretty damned nicely with a couple of bullet-holes in the wings.. :)
As far as I know on the 76: it´s an option on the 200 (originally designed for domestic carriers in the US) and it is standard fitted on all the ER ones..

The A330-300s I fly do not have fuel dumping facilities....but I guess with some spare change AI wouldn't mind doing the mod.

[This message has been edited by Smoozesailing (edited 03 July 2001).]

I am convinced that MD11's may be able to dump fuel, but can any MD pilot perhaps confirm.
Regarding the A330 dumping capability (1 ton/min) - this particular one was the A330-200 and it seems like it is not standard on all fleets. Emirates operates a few of them and apparently with the dump capability. Don't know if that was a company specific request for the option as they operate out of Dubai where temps are very high and pressures are low in summer. On some of the runways overhere, due to obstacles in the climb out, certain types of aircraft have up to an eight ton fuel penalty if they have to depart from a particular runway and therefore these guys would always request the opposite end for departure if traffic and wx permits.
Cheers
Fart

No fuel dump valves/pumps are on the DC-9, probably not on MD-80s either. One can leave takeoff flaps and extend the gear (maybe not good in icing conditions), creating more fuel burn per minute.

Do any two-person cockpits have dump capability? I can imagine how many 'clean-up' items are on an A-300/330/340 or B-777 "engine failure" or "eng. fire" checklist. Workload could be a serious factor here, having no flight engineer. Luckily, computers have replaced people. Tell that to MD-11 pilots who have an inoperative fuel gauge (and other things), far from land.

How about the newest C-130, having no flight engineer? How about a brand-new Aircraft Commander, flying with a new copilot having about 300-400 hours total, losing an engine and monitoring fuel dumping?

A300B4 HAS DUMP SYSTEM.DC9/MD80 DOSE NOT,A310 DOSE NOT.AS FOR THE MD11 WASN'T THAT WHAT THOSE POOR GUYS ON SWISSAIR 111 WERE DOING WHICH DELAYED THEM AND GAVE THE FIRE THE TIME IT NEEDED TO DO THE DAMAGE,SHOULD HAVE GONE FOR THE OVERWEIGHT LANDING!

I think that the Canadian B767-300s which are now part of the Air Canada fleet either don't have the capability to dump fuel or the dumping system is disabled - not sure which. Anyone know?