TCAS and military aircraft
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TCAS and military aircraft
As more civilian pax aircraft become equippred with TCAS we're beginning to notice an increasing trend in the military fighter aircraft fraternity of being blamed for setting off TCAS in these aircraft. IE the perception is we're roaring around the airways with a total disregard for our heavy brethern, disregarding established rules for separtion etc. As an education, fighter aircraft are able to generate ROC, ROD's up to 20000' per min, obviously when generating these ROC or ROD, flying an intercept course on an airliner chances are TCAS will call for an avoidance manouevre. Of particular interest is at joint user fields where military aircraft operate conjointly with civilian aircraft in the circuit area, expect TCAS indications in this environment. So whats the point? As miliary aviators we are aware of our performace characteristics and endevour not to place our aircraft in a position to cause these indication, however if on the odd occasion we can't help but fly tactically in our OP area's we may trigger TCAS, sorry ! We'll do our best to keep clear
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All very well but your OP area seems to include W3D to the south of Inverness. Doesn't help when you take the avoiding action given by Lossi only to see the mil a/c on TCAS is chasing you for sport.
And while I am at it, can you guys fly 'normal' circuits? Every visiting mil jet at INV flys down the r/w at about 250kts and 50 ft before breaking into the circuit. Great fun for you but being overtaken on short finals from below is not on.
And while I am at it, can you guys fly 'normal' circuits? Every visiting mil jet at INV flys down the r/w at about 250kts and 50 ft before breaking into the circuit. Great fun for you but being overtaken on short finals from below is not on.
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As an education , Knuckle , if we (civilians) get a TCAS RA (RA means"do something now! Unlike a TA which is traffic information)then we have to react. We may very well have cabin crew pushing catering trolleys loaded with hot drinks , or indeed pax wandering about.Any semi-violent manoeuvre on our part can have serious repercussions , but not as serious as a collision , so we have to react promptly.
I was going to say "play with yourselves" , but that could be misinterpreted.
I'm afraid not many civvy pilots are very impressed by talk of high-speed/high gee manoevres once they've been apparently used as a target.
Suffice it to say , the UK Flight Safety Committee is taking an active interest in the number of TCAS RA's being generated , and the services are represented on that committee. If somebody in authority has been telling you guys to be a little more careful , then good.Just salute and do what you're told.KEEP CLEAR.
I was going to say "play with yourselves" , but that could be misinterpreted.
I'm afraid not many civvy pilots are very impressed by talk of high-speed/high gee manoevres once they've been apparently used as a target.
Suffice it to say , the UK Flight Safety Committee is taking an active interest in the number of TCAS RA's being generated , and the services are represented on that committee. If somebody in authority has been telling you guys to be a little more careful , then good.Just salute and do what you're told.KEEP CLEAR.
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Here's another angle.
Why are British military helicopters not fitted with an altitude encoding transponder? They appear on TCAS alright...as those most annoying "no alt info" targets. Is the MoD unable to afford a couple-hundred quid for a Mode C output?
Why has the CAA mandated TCAS for airline aircraft if the rest of the safety system is not in place?
An example. I might be flying at 6,000 feet and the military helicopter (or a civilian aircraft with a transponder with no Mode C - or with Mode C but with altitude deliberately switched off) might be flying outside controlled airspace at 1,500 feet. We might be both in level flight and therefore no collision conflict exists.
HOWEVER, because the other traffic does not have an altitude readout, we get a "Traffic, Traffic" aural and a yellow TCAS target when our two aircraft are laterally proximate, even though we remain well separated vertically.
MoD...please fit Mode C.
And CAA...please mandate that all transponder equipped aircraft must also have Mode C fitted and that Mode C must be switched on at any time that Mode A is switched on.
Why are British military helicopters not fitted with an altitude encoding transponder? They appear on TCAS alright...as those most annoying "no alt info" targets. Is the MoD unable to afford a couple-hundred quid for a Mode C output?
Why has the CAA mandated TCAS for airline aircraft if the rest of the safety system is not in place?
An example. I might be flying at 6,000 feet and the military helicopter (or a civilian aircraft with a transponder with no Mode C - or with Mode C but with altitude deliberately switched off) might be flying outside controlled airspace at 1,500 feet. We might be both in level flight and therefore no collision conflict exists.
HOWEVER, because the other traffic does not have an altitude readout, we get a "Traffic, Traffic" aural and a yellow TCAS target when our two aircraft are laterally proximate, even though we remain well separated vertically.
MoD...please fit Mode C.
And CAA...please mandate that all transponder equipped aircraft must also have Mode C fitted and that Mode C must be switched on at any time that Mode A is switched on.
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Most people might have forgotten about the tragic collision a few years ago west of Africa between a US Air Force C-141 and a Russian transport plane. I seem to remember that both were military transports.
As for fighters intercepting airliners, how does a fighter/attack jet pilot know whether the airline pilot will climb or descend, and at what rate? Sometimes a climb or descent must be stopped, as commanded by a TCAS resolution advisory (RA).
When some of our pilots were laid off in '90 or '91, most of them chose to interview with KLM to be "cruise pilots" for a very fortunate 2-year contract (it's very unique for any fuloughed US pilots to quickly get an interview and job with a liveable salary. By the way, they walked into their Dutch apartments and discovered no ovens or refrigerators) after acquiring the Dutch 747-400 type rating in their US training facility. In the middle of the night over the Soviet Union, one of them had relieved the Captain, and suddenly a plane was at their 12 o'clock and straight ahead! Despite having no TCAS (I believe) the cruise pilot noticed the plane's position lights and pushed the 747's yoke quickly forward, missing the Russian plane by a few hundred feet! He definitely earned an entire career's salary that night. Very well done, Al ("kreijde" or "krijde", his KLM nickname)!
[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 09 March 2001).]
As for fighters intercepting airliners, how does a fighter/attack jet pilot know whether the airline pilot will climb or descend, and at what rate? Sometimes a climb or descent must be stopped, as commanded by a TCAS resolution advisory (RA).
When some of our pilots were laid off in '90 or '91, most of them chose to interview with KLM to be "cruise pilots" for a very fortunate 2-year contract (it's very unique for any fuloughed US pilots to quickly get an interview and job with a liveable salary. By the way, they walked into their Dutch apartments and discovered no ovens or refrigerators) after acquiring the Dutch 747-400 type rating in their US training facility. In the middle of the night over the Soviet Union, one of them had relieved the Captain, and suddenly a plane was at their 12 o'clock and straight ahead! Despite having no TCAS (I believe) the cruise pilot noticed the plane's position lights and pushed the 747's yoke quickly forward, missing the Russian plane by a few hundred feet! He definitely earned an entire career's salary that night. Very well done, Al ("kreijde" or "krijde", his KLM nickname)!
[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 09 March 2001).]
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As an aside, the spec for TCAS is only good for vertical rates of closure of up to 10,000 fpm.
This is ample for airliner versus airliner, but not airliner versus vertically manoeuvring fast jet.
Weird tracking and thus inappropriate RAs can result.
CPB
This is ample for airliner versus airliner, but not airliner versus vertically manoeuvring fast jet.
Weird tracking and thus inappropriate RAs can result.
CPB
