Quiz - What was the Worlds fastest subsonic airliner?
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Some of us seem to have missed the point its not one off test flights or dives,its cruise in routine service and it looks to me as if the Convairs might have it.Airbanda I think all the old Spantax Convairs at PMI have gone one lingered on longer than the others but I can,t remember seeing that recently I,ll remember to lookout for it on my next turnround it was behind the military hangar adjacenr to the 24R threshold.
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I'm not disputing the Convairs were able to cruise faster but my original point stands. The old obsolete 747 could fly at Mach 0.99 which was a creditable aerodynamic achievement.
If it was at 10 degrees and say at full power... let's say the engines produce 60% power at cruise altitude. Sine 10 degrees on 300 tonnes gives us 28750 pounds per engine. Factor that by 100/60 and add to the 50000 pound engines it's already got and that means you'd need four 98000 pound engines to turn your 747 into a Mach One Cruiser.
Dear Rolls Royce...
If it was at 10 degrees and say at full power... let's say the engines produce 60% power at cruise altitude. Sine 10 degrees on 300 tonnes gives us 28750 pounds per engine. Factor that by 100/60 and add to the 50000 pound engines it's already got and that means you'd need four 98000 pound engines to turn your 747 into a Mach One Cruiser.
Dear Rolls Royce...
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Turbofan engines typically produce less than 60% of rated thrust at normal cruise altitudes. The 747 was designed to cruise at M.86 and as such has 39 degree swept wings. The L1011 was also designed to cruise at M.86. The CV990 was designed to cruise at M.90. Older is faster, but more thirsty.
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You are all wrong.
The fastest subsonic airliner flew at Mach 0.999999 recurring.
Easy - it was Concorde just slowin' down at idle.
P.S. Just thought of something else. It was (is) so far ahead of its time it was even designed to counter the "Economy class" DVT problem. Due to air friction the legroom increases as it reaches Mach 2!
[This message has been edited by ShyTorque (edited 16 January 2001).]
The fastest subsonic airliner flew at Mach 0.999999 recurring.
Easy - it was Concorde just slowin' down at idle.
P.S. Just thought of something else. It was (is) so far ahead of its time it was even designed to counter the "Economy class" DVT problem. Due to air friction the legroom increases as it reaches Mach 2!
[This message has been edited by ShyTorque (edited 16 January 2001).]
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Maybe this does not qualify, but according to Stanley Stewart's "Emergency" a TWA 727-31 involved in a serious incident over the great lakes in April 79 actualy broke the sound barrier. There is a lot more to say about the causes of the incident but I will leave that to those better qualified than myself!
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Along a simmilar thread, the Silk Air (sp?) 737 that crashed a couple of years ago when the Capt. nosed the aircraft into the ground (with full power) was doing something in the region of Mach 1.3 upon impact. All because of the actions of one crazed man.
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I've actually had the pleasure of flying the CV990 Coronado. Unfortuneatly I was only 1 year old, but according to my dad it did CPH-MAD in less than 3 hours. Probably had some favourable tailwinds, but that's still around 30 - 45 mins. less than a current day MD80 with SAS or Iberia.
The best part though, unless you're a treehugger, was the smoketrail it left on take-off. Rumours has it that a clever ATCO fellow actually issued a RVR on the ATIS after a Coronado had taken off
It even made a Phantom bluss from embarresment !
The best part though, unless you're a treehugger, was the smoketrail it left on take-off. Rumours has it that a clever ATCO fellow actually issued a RVR on the ATIS after a Coronado had taken off
It even made a Phantom bluss from embarresment !
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I think for serious subsonic cruise one-upmanship, you'd have to go a long way to beat the old RAF Vulcan B2 and Victor B2, bothof which could cruise at M0.90+ at FL550 or higher.... The RB211 B742 is quite happy at M0.88, and I've seen M0.90 briefly. The VC10, I think, had a high-speed cruise of M0.94, but with all the growths they've sprouted in the military I doubt they can do more than M0.85 now.
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Apologies to quid. Your answer crossed in the post.
I have cruise Mach 0.92 for the 747 SP. Not sure how reliable that figure is.
Here's a question - When the 747 was doing Mach 0.99 every airflow was presumably supersonic so would it have generated a sonic boom?
I have cruise Mach 0.92 for the 747 SP. Not sure how reliable that figure is.
Here's a question - When the 747 was doing Mach 0.99 every airflow was presumably supersonic so would it have generated a sonic boom?
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twistedenginestarter - Nah, the SP (Short Plane ) sits on 0.86, but yes, it can go a lot faster if you like.
And a cautious yes to the question of sonic boom, albeit a relatively quiet one with the 747 at 0.99. Being a subsonic speed, it's not entirely supersonic over the entire airframe, so it wouldn't have a completely developed shock wave.
) sits on 0.86, but yes, it can go a lot faster if you like.And a cautious yes to the question of sonic boom, albeit a relatively quiet one with the 747 at 0.99. Being a subsonic speed, it's not entirely supersonic over the entire airframe, so it wouldn't have a completely developed shock wave.
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Anyone have any good links for the 880/990?
Here are some for pictures of TWA's
* Trans World Airlines (TWA) Convair CV-880 N805TW (SFO)
http://airliners.net/open.file?id=104725
* Trans World Airlines (TWA) Convair CV-880 N819TW (DEN)
http://airliners.net/open.file?id=95634
* Trans World Airlines (TWA) Convair CV-880 N819TW (BOS)
http://airliners.net/open.file?id=48534
* Trans World Airlines (TWA) Convair CV-880 N819TW (BOS)
http://airliners.net/open.file?id=35034
Here are some for pictures of TWA's
* Trans World Airlines (TWA) Convair CV-880 N805TW (SFO)
http://airliners.net/open.file?id=104725
* Trans World Airlines (TWA) Convair CV-880 N819TW (DEN)
http://airliners.net/open.file?id=95634
* Trans World Airlines (TWA) Convair CV-880 N819TW (BOS)
http://airliners.net/open.file?id=48534
* Trans World Airlines (TWA) Convair CV-880 N819TW (BOS)
http://airliners.net/open.file?id=35034
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Coincidentally, this has just appeared on AP.
BOEING STUDIES BLUEPRINT FOR SUPER-FAST PASSENGER JET
Boeing - the US company that developed the world’s fastest jetliner - is looking at a new commercial plane that could fly at nearly the speed of sound.
Boeing spokeswoman Barbara Murphy confirmed that the company was studying the concept, referred to internally as “Yellowstone”, but would not give specifics. No decision has been made on whether to actually develop the aircraft.
The Wall Street Journal, quoting unidentified sources, reported that the jet would be capable of travelling at Mach 0.95 - Mach 1 is the speed of sound.
The jet would carry 200 to 300 people as far as 6,100 nautical miles, similar to Boeing’s two-engine 767s, the Journal said.
The fastest subsonic commercial jet is Boeing’s 747-400, which can fly at Mach 0.92 but cruises at Mach 0.85, or more than 500 mph.
The Concorde supersonic jet can fly twice the speed of sound and crosses the Atlantic at 1,350 mph. The Anglo-French plane has been grounded since an Air France Concorde crashed on July 25, killing all 109 people on board and four people on the ground.
Murphy said Seattle-based Boeing constantly studied new designs and materials for possible future use under its 20XX program.
She said Yellowstone was part of the 20XX and the P-2 research programmes. P-2 refers to a design that looks similar to Boeing’s 777 twin-engine wide body, but could be any size from a 100 to a 600-passenger jet and includes many configurations, she said.
Boeing has long studied a possible new supersonic transport, but breakthroughs in materials and engine performance need to be made for the aircraft to be economically practical, she said.
“We do not see, at this point, anything on the horizon that is going to change this problem with faster speed and poorer economics,” Murphy said.
Murphy noted that improvements for the proposed 747X family, which would compete with the recently launched Airbus Industries 555-passenger A380 jet, would allow it to cruise at Mach 0.86. So far, Boeing has not received any orders for the 747X. Such tiny increments are important, especially on long-range aircraft, since they allow more efficient, economical flights.
In 1966, Boeing won money from the government to develop the SST, or the Supersonic Transport, which was expected to become the American equivalent to the Concorde, said Boeing historian Mike Lombardi. However, the project was cancelled in 1971 due to costs and objections over possible environmental impact, he said.
Lombardi said Boeing had continued to study travelling at supersonic speed. Until three years ago, the company worked with Nasa on the High Speed Civil Transport programme. The program ended, he said, because “they found that the planes wouldn’t be economical to operate, and they still had to overcome the hurdle of a sonic boom”.
BOEING STUDIES BLUEPRINT FOR SUPER-FAST PASSENGER JET
Boeing - the US company that developed the world’s fastest jetliner - is looking at a new commercial plane that could fly at nearly the speed of sound.
Boeing spokeswoman Barbara Murphy confirmed that the company was studying the concept, referred to internally as “Yellowstone”, but would not give specifics. No decision has been made on whether to actually develop the aircraft.
The Wall Street Journal, quoting unidentified sources, reported that the jet would be capable of travelling at Mach 0.95 - Mach 1 is the speed of sound.
The jet would carry 200 to 300 people as far as 6,100 nautical miles, similar to Boeing’s two-engine 767s, the Journal said.
The fastest subsonic commercial jet is Boeing’s 747-400, which can fly at Mach 0.92 but cruises at Mach 0.85, or more than 500 mph.
The Concorde supersonic jet can fly twice the speed of sound and crosses the Atlantic at 1,350 mph. The Anglo-French plane has been grounded since an Air France Concorde crashed on July 25, killing all 109 people on board and four people on the ground.
Murphy said Seattle-based Boeing constantly studied new designs and materials for possible future use under its 20XX program.
She said Yellowstone was part of the 20XX and the P-2 research programmes. P-2 refers to a design that looks similar to Boeing’s 777 twin-engine wide body, but could be any size from a 100 to a 600-passenger jet and includes many configurations, she said.
Boeing has long studied a possible new supersonic transport, but breakthroughs in materials and engine performance need to be made for the aircraft to be economically practical, she said.
“We do not see, at this point, anything on the horizon that is going to change this problem with faster speed and poorer economics,” Murphy said.
Murphy noted that improvements for the proposed 747X family, which would compete with the recently launched Airbus Industries 555-passenger A380 jet, would allow it to cruise at Mach 0.86. So far, Boeing has not received any orders for the 747X. Such tiny increments are important, especially on long-range aircraft, since they allow more efficient, economical flights.
In 1966, Boeing won money from the government to develop the SST, or the Supersonic Transport, which was expected to become the American equivalent to the Concorde, said Boeing historian Mike Lombardi. However, the project was cancelled in 1971 due to costs and objections over possible environmental impact, he said.
Lombardi said Boeing had continued to study travelling at supersonic speed. Until three years ago, the company worked with Nasa on the High Speed Civil Transport programme. The program ended, he said, because “they found that the planes wouldn’t be economical to operate, and they still had to overcome the hurdle of a sonic boom”.
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airforceone;
Good point. Historically the russians have produced some aerodynamic marvels, so maybe the fastest sub-sonic jet should be sought outside the usual circles ? Might prove difficult on this forum though; doesn't strike as the place where Aeroflop pilots hang around when off-duty....
Good point. Historically the russians have produced some aerodynamic marvels, so maybe the fastest sub-sonic jet should be sought outside the usual circles ? Might prove difficult on this forum though; doesn't strike as the place where Aeroflop pilots hang around when off-duty....
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Time for me to jump in...When I was hired @ AAL in Feb 1966, I was trained initially as
F/E on the CV-990. At the time, it was touted as the fastest airliner, based on MMO of .912. When AAL bought these aircraft, it was based, in part, on Convair's promise of the fastest airliner. To achieve this, various configurations of "anti-shock bodies" were tested (I've seen pictures of as many as seven/wing). The two/wing config
achieved the best results.
A few interesting sidelights to all this:
The outboard "ASB's" carried fuel (I can't remember how much). This fuel was burned in the climb so as to avoid a cruise limitation of M .78 with fuel in the ASB's!
The drag curve increased so rapidly that if one were cruising at .85 (typical), without touching the throttles you could nose over to a descent rate of 1500'/min and the speed would increase only to about .88!
It had alot of quirks, too many to mention here, but it was proof that Mickey Mouse was alive and well desiging planes for Convair!
Cheers, EBD
F/E on the CV-990. At the time, it was touted as the fastest airliner, based on MMO of .912. When AAL bought these aircraft, it was based, in part, on Convair's promise of the fastest airliner. To achieve this, various configurations of "anti-shock bodies" were tested (I've seen pictures of as many as seven/wing). The two/wing config
achieved the best results.
A few interesting sidelights to all this:
The outboard "ASB's" carried fuel (I can't remember how much). This fuel was burned in the climb so as to avoid a cruise limitation of M .78 with fuel in the ASB's!
The drag curve increased so rapidly that if one were cruising at .85 (typical), without touching the throttles you could nose over to a descent rate of 1500'/min and the speed would increase only to about .88!
It had alot of quirks, too many to mention here, but it was proof that Mickey Mouse was alive and well desiging planes for Convair!
Cheers, EBD
