STAR?
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Join Date: Apr 2001
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STAR?
Hi,
I got a question. Is it not needed to fly an STAR? Example, the controller can say to you to just fly direct to an VOR without flying the STAR, or is it a need to fly it?
ok, thanx a lot!!!
I got a question. Is it not needed to fly an STAR? Example, the controller can say to you to just fly direct to an VOR without flying the STAR, or is it a need to fly it?
ok, thanx a lot!!!
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Basically, whatever the controller tells you to do....you do!!
If he clears you to fly the full STAR, thats what you do.
If he clears you from a 100 miles away direct to final approach fix...then thats what you do.
He can also vector you around, and tell you to join the STAR at a later point.
If he clears you to fly the full STAR, thats what you do.
If he clears you from a 100 miles away direct to final approach fix...then thats what you do.
He can also vector you around, and tell you to join the STAR at a later point.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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"U do whatever ATC say"... if U can, if your aircraft can & above all if U agree : as the pilot, U are the final authority, not ATC. Eg I wouldn't bother with the STAR if I had an engine problem ! In addition, to accept a STAR, U need to have a description of it in front of U. ATC want U to fly a STAR & U don't want to : very simple : just say "unable to comply, requesting RV". U can also mention "no STAR" in the flight plan & they won't issue U with one.
MF
MF
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Manflex55
If you file an IFR flight plan without the means to fly it, you're nuts!
If you have an engine problem and request direct vectors, you will probably get it, but it's not guaranteed. It also depends how many engines you've got to start with.
You cannot realistically GUARANTEE a direct track across the flight paths of 10s of aircraft unless you're gonna fall out of the sky.
I have never heard of NO STAR in a flight plan. What if the airfield radar goes off-line?
If you file an IFR flight plan without the means to fly it, you're nuts!
If you have an engine problem and request direct vectors, you will probably get it, but it's not guaranteed. It also depends how many engines you've got to start with.
You cannot realistically GUARANTEE a direct track across the flight paths of 10s of aircraft unless you're gonna fall out of the sky.
I have never heard of NO STAR in a flight plan. What if the airfield radar goes off-line?
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Flaps 1,
Quoting FAR-AIM 5.4.1 (July 2001 edition) :
" c. Use of STAR's requires pilot possession of at least the approved textual description. As with any ATC clearance or portion thereof, it is the responsibility of each pilot to accept or refuse an issued STAR. Pilots should notify ATC if they do not wish to use a STAR by placing "NO STAR" in the remarks section of the flight plan or by the less desirable method of verbally stating the same to ATC. "
See, U learn something new every day !
MF
Quoting FAR-AIM 5.4.1 (July 2001 edition) :
" c. Use of STAR's requires pilot possession of at least the approved textual description. As with any ATC clearance or portion thereof, it is the responsibility of each pilot to accept or refuse an issued STAR. Pilots should notify ATC if they do not wish to use a STAR by placing "NO STAR" in the remarks section of the flight plan or by the less desirable method of verbally stating the same to ATC. "
See, U learn something new every day !
MF
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Does this exist under JARs?
Try it at LHR or another EU major in a busy period and see how far you get!
If you're on a MAYDAY things would be different.
I can't see how you can file an IFR plan, knowing before departure that you do not have the means to fly an IFR approach (equipment and documentation) at your disposal.
Are the American regs different to Europe perhaps?
[ 24 September 2001: Message edited by: FlapsOne ]
Try it at LHR or another EU major in a busy period and see how far you get!
If you're on a MAYDAY things would be different.
I can't see how you can file an IFR plan, knowing before departure that you do not have the means to fly an IFR approach (equipment and documentation) at your disposal.
Are the American regs different to Europe perhaps?
[ 24 September 2001: Message edited by: FlapsOne ]
Join Date: Apr 2001
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In addition: Not all airports have radar and even if they have, they might not be able to give you radar vectors. This can depend on the number of ATC controllers at the airport and density of traffic, the quality of the radar, the qualification of the ATC controllers, etc etc.
In the "old days," when there were no such thing as STARs or radars, all aircraft had to fly "full procedures", which normally meant flying overhead the airport or a nearby navigational beacon, flying away from the airport for a pre-determined period of time, or to a certain distance from the airport while descending, and then turning back and getting established on the inbound track before commencing further descent on the inbound track.
The STARS were originally designed for the benifit of the pilots (and in the end for the passengers!) so that they wouldn't have to fly these ineffective and time-consuming procedures to get lined up with the final approach track.
I am not too familiar with the FAA rules (flying in JAA-area myself), but certainly if you don't want, or if you are unable, to fly the STAR, you would have to fly this lenghty full procedure. -Unless, of course, the ATC controller is able, and gives you radar vectors.
But Manflex55 has a point, though: On many of the airports that I fly in to, we would rather request a different track than the STARS to avoid turbulence over mountainous terrain, if there are strong winds from a certain direction.
And if we don't get it, and the winds are strong enough - It's time for the magic Mayday call.
This has never happened, though, and as you probably understand, LETS FLY, getting an aircraft down on the ground is a matter of careful cooperation between the pilots and the ATC controllers.
Nick.
In the "old days," when there were no such thing as STARs or radars, all aircraft had to fly "full procedures", which normally meant flying overhead the airport or a nearby navigational beacon, flying away from the airport for a pre-determined period of time, or to a certain distance from the airport while descending, and then turning back and getting established on the inbound track before commencing further descent on the inbound track.
The STARS were originally designed for the benifit of the pilots (and in the end for the passengers!) so that they wouldn't have to fly these ineffective and time-consuming procedures to get lined up with the final approach track.
I am not too familiar with the FAA rules (flying in JAA-area myself), but certainly if you don't want, or if you are unable, to fly the STAR, you would have to fly this lenghty full procedure. -Unless, of course, the ATC controller is able, and gives you radar vectors.
But Manflex55 has a point, though: On many of the airports that I fly in to, we would rather request a different track than the STARS to avoid turbulence over mountainous terrain, if there are strong winds from a certain direction.
And if we don't get it, and the winds are strong enough - It's time for the magic Mayday call.
This has never happened, though, and as you probably understand, LETS FLY, getting an aircraft down on the ground is a matter of careful cooperation between the pilots and the ATC controllers.Nick.
In the "old days," when there were no such thing as STARs or radars, all aircraft had to fly "full procedures", which normally meant flying overhead the airport or a nearby navigational beacon, flying away from the airport for a pre-determined period of time, or to a certain distance from the airport while descending, and then turning back and getting established on the inbound track before commencing further descent on the inbound track.
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Oh, well, if you never have had to fly a full procedure before on an airport without STAR-procedures or radar, then I guess that would have to do with the topography of the airports you fly to.
Due to the terrain around certain airports, the initial approach altitude is lower than the MSA in the area. If you don't have a STAR or a radar controller, which both gives you a track toward the IAF and safe terrain clearance, you would have to fly overhead the airport/Nav-beacon/fix/whatever, before starting descent to initial approach altitude.
Whe it comes to ATC, I think you have to read my post again.
Let me quote myself:
-Does it sound like I underestimate our ATC brothers? If the ATC controller doesn't have a radar, there's really not much he can do in the described situation, other than saying "Cleared approach," and making sure there is no conflicting traffic in the approach sector.
If the only described procedure to get from MSA to initial approach altitude is by entering a racetrack or a procedure turn (or maybe a holding) you have to do it. If the ATC controller clears you to "Intercept 15 miles final for straight in," that might be a nice gesture, but following that clearance could be fatal.
...And "The old days" is not too far back in Norway either. We also have several airports without radar or STARS. Many of these don't have STARS due to the surrounding terrain.
That's why I think I might have some input for mr. LETS FLY.
Nick.
Edited to clarify some points...
[ 26 September 2001: Message edited by: Nick Figaretto ]
Due to the terrain around certain airports, the initial approach altitude is lower than the MSA in the area. If you don't have a STAR or a radar controller, which both gives you a track toward the IAF and safe terrain clearance, you would have to fly overhead the airport/Nav-beacon/fix/whatever, before starting descent to initial approach altitude.
Whe it comes to ATC, I think you have to read my post again.
Let me quote myself:
(...)getting an aircraft down on the ground is a matter of careful cooperation between the pilots and the ATC controllers.
If the only described procedure to get from MSA to initial approach altitude is by entering a racetrack or a procedure turn (or maybe a holding) you have to do it. If the ATC controller clears you to "Intercept 15 miles final for straight in," that might be a nice gesture, but following that clearance could be fatal.
...And "The old days" is not too far back in Norway either. We also have several airports without radar or STARS. Many of these don't have STARS due to the surrounding terrain.
That's why I think I might have some input for mr. LETS FLY.
Nick.
Edited to clarify some points...
[ 26 September 2001: Message edited by: Nick Figaretto ]
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Just something to note... at nighttime, when it's generally quiet, direct routings are much more frequent, often missing out the STAR and clearing you to the "centrefix" for a certain runway at the destination... ie. a 8 or a 10 mile final.
Hope this helps
Hope this helps
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One more note: In the US, there are no more STARs. They are now called "Arrival Procedures.
Stamatis
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Try it at LHR or another EU major in a busy period and see how far you get!
Be prepared to wonder around the TMA for quite a while if you do so though...
