Noisy Flightdeck, Headsets and Hearing Loss
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Noisy Flightdeck, Headsets and Hearing Loss
My flightdeck (B737) is very noisy, particularly at high speed/low level which is exactly when you need to hear the other guy. Although Mr Boeing very kindly fitted a good intercom systen he neglected to fit latch-on intercom switches which makes it's use impractical.
To counter the ambient noise we turn the radio volume right up, often to a painful level, and then take off one earpiece so we can hear the other guy.
I am convinced I am going deaf in the RT ear.
What experience do others have of this?
Do any jet operators use intercoms?
Or provide headsets with some noise attenuation?
Has anyone ever come across a proper accredited study of this problem, leads appreciated?
Are any companies concerned at their potential liability for damaging employees hearing in this avoidable way?
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: capt waffoo ]
To counter the ambient noise we turn the radio volume right up, often to a painful level, and then take off one earpiece so we can hear the other guy.
I am convinced I am going deaf in the RT ear.
What experience do others have of this?
Do any jet operators use intercoms?
Or provide headsets with some noise attenuation?
Has anyone ever come across a proper accredited study of this problem, leads appreciated?
Are any companies concerned at their potential liability for damaging employees hearing in this avoidable way?
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: capt waffoo ]
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First, you should find that the control wheel intercom selector does latch on your B737s. This is not an ideal system, but which bits of the geriatric Boeing are?
Second, there are several airlines (in the UK at least) who have recognised that intercom promotes a safer flight deck, not only in terms of pilots' hearing, but also by allowing a stress-free 'no problems catching that last remark' environment.
You're right about the defficiencies inherent in shouting across the flight deck. Sadly, you'll find that Health and Safety rules allow the noise level in the B737 - just.
The other challenge is getting around managers who think it 'sexy' and 'big' not to wear a headset properly.
Second, there are several airlines (in the UK at least) who have recognised that intercom promotes a safer flight deck, not only in terms of pilots' hearing, but also by allowing a stress-free 'no problems catching that last remark' environment.
You're right about the defficiencies inherent in shouting across the flight deck. Sadly, you'll find that Health and Safety rules allow the noise level in the B737 - just.
The other challenge is getting around managers who think it 'sexy' and 'big' not to wear a headset properly.
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Airbus have designed an excellent system with a latch-on switch on the radio panel, and a spring loaded switch on the stick. At my airline the infinitively wise management have decided that we are not to use the intercom system. In addition to this decision, a statement in the FOM says that when the headset is used (anything except for cruise), the speaker will be in the off position. In essence, you're left with the choice of using both earpieces to hear ATC, or using one earpiece to hear your fellow aviatior. I guess accurate communication is not necessary for safety.
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N Sky, thanks. Can you, or anyone else tell me which airlines recognise this problem, and what I really want is access to scientific report on this problem to wave at our tech pilot/health and safety rep. Any ideas?
Shame about H&S regs accepting the noise level, but this is a spurious argument on their part because it is not the anbient noise that is damaging, it is the nightclub-level of RT volume we need to overcome the ambient din without noise attenuating headset. And they measure ambient noise, not the din at ear level INSIDE the headsets, dont they?
[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: capt waffoo ]
Shame about H&S regs accepting the noise level, but this is a spurious argument on their part because it is not the anbient noise that is damaging, it is the nightclub-level of RT volume we need to overcome the ambient din without noise attenuating headset. And they measure ambient noise, not the din at ear level INSIDE the headsets, dont they?
[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: capt waffoo ]
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Totally agree with you, I continually have a battle between "this R/T level is too loud, better turn it down", followed by "what did he just say?, better turn it up again". Some guys on my fleet refuse to go above 280kts in order to keep the noise level down, even if the FMC says 196etc. Anything above about 270 is pretty loud. Once had to do a 1 1/2 hour flight having been level capped at FL190 - 310kts all the way was painful.
There is probably nothing stopping you getting a noise attenuating headset - you can then put it on both ears, use the intercom if required - it may not be needed. Flew with a guy the other day who had one. He could hear me even with the headset on both ears. However, at £400 not cheap. Also, to really work, both guys need to wear them with intercom.
Believe BA 747-400 guys use them with intercom.
I guess we'll have to wait until someone loses there med-cat due to the noise and sues their airline. Unfortunately, only then is something likely to be done. Noise attenuating headsets cost money, and if they don't have to, they won't spend.
Why don't you have a word with health and safety - it's their job to know about these things. If you find anything out, let us know.
There is probably nothing stopping you getting a noise attenuating headset - you can then put it on both ears, use the intercom if required - it may not be needed. Flew with a guy the other day who had one. He could hear me even with the headset on both ears. However, at £400 not cheap. Also, to really work, both guys need to wear them with intercom.
Believe BA 747-400 guys use them with intercom.
I guess we'll have to wait until someone loses there med-cat due to the noise and sues their airline. Unfortunately, only then is something likely to be done. Noise attenuating headsets cost money, and if they don't have to, they won't spend.
Why don't you have a word with health and safety - it's their job to know about these things. If you find anything out, let us know.
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At the end of the day any headsetchoice will have to be a compromise - I agree the BA noise reduction version is the healthy option but far too expensive for most companies to entertain,let alone individuals.
Most UK jet operators use Sennheiser 45,s and are company provided by some.Very few pilots like them though.Its not just the discomfort of wearing this clampish headset for 9hour duties , offset with one earphone pushed back but also the volume has to be set so high.
Fortunately we now use the best headset in the business - the plantronics starset fits over one ear ,no headband ,direct sound to ear, volume setting is the lowest I,ve ever seen on com box ,works on our B737/A320 and its that comfortable you don,t even think of removing it during cruise - highly recommended!!
Most UK jet operators use Sennheiser 45,s and are company provided by some.Very few pilots like them though.Its not just the discomfort of wearing this clampish headset for 9hour duties , offset with one earphone pushed back but also the volume has to be set so high.
Fortunately we now use the best headset in the business - the plantronics starset fits over one ear ,no headband ,direct sound to ear, volume setting is the lowest I,ve ever seen on com box ,works on our B737/A320 and its that comfortable you don,t even think of removing it during cruise - highly recommended!!
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Why dont they route the flightdeck noise to a headset and then you all can just leave that headset OFF. I beleive MSFS has the option to turn any sounds off you choose, including engine noise. Brilliant!
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I know many pilots who are quite profoundly deaf - one in particular who has difficulty hearing even in normal conversation one-to-one in a quiet room.
I hear from medics of my acquiantance that it would be 'difficult' to fail anyone's JAR Class 1 on hearing grounds, and my experience with deaf pilots seems to bear this out.
As to having the option to use a decent headset, some companies prohibit use of intercom in their Ops Manuals - thus removing this option.
I hear from medics of my acquiantance that it would be 'difficult' to fail anyone's JAR Class 1 on hearing grounds, and my experience with deaf pilots seems to bear this out.
As to having the option to use a decent headset, some companies prohibit use of intercom in their Ops Manuals - thus removing this option.
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Comapred to the 146, a 737 cockpit is silent!! Headsets and intercoms have to be used, over both ears, all the time. Constant flights at 305kts, FL160-260 really dosent help either!
short flights long nights
RE "locking on" of the intercom switch, it is an option in the 737, not standard fit. I know this because our aircraft do not have the "lock on " feature, however we have just dry leased a SAA 738 to help cope with demand, and in the "differences list" is a note: "Caution, aircraft is equipped with intercom key lock option" 
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in 737 i use a fitted ear piece that was molded to my ear back in DEN (very common in the states and i think would make for a good business adventure here in europe) for the left ear that is attached to the headset. and an ear plug in the right ear. (sitting in left seat). the ear plug cuts all the trash noise out and i do not have much problem at all with hearing FO's or even the cabin crew who says its too cold.
i was in twin otter for too long and then C130 too long and had to use Dave Clarkes and ear plugs under that to survive.
and i do climb and descend at 280 knots not only for sound but for unexpected turblulence that i have encountered more than once and it makes a good transition to the cruise speed. some FMC's you have to watch but most flow easily from 280 to the mach cruise. and the QRH performance is usually 250/280/.74 anyway so i use that to reduce the variables. and when turbulence hits in climb or descent, i don't have to change speed.
i was in twin otter for too long and then C130 too long and had to use Dave Clarkes and ear plugs under that to survive.
and i do climb and descend at 280 knots not only for sound but for unexpected turblulence that i have encountered more than once and it makes a good transition to the cruise speed. some FMC's you have to watch but most flow easily from 280 to the mach cruise. and the QRH performance is usually 250/280/.74 anyway so i use that to reduce the variables. and when turbulence hits in climb or descent, i don't have to change speed.
Controversial, moi?
BA recognised the problem 4 or 5 years ago. The figures I saw suggested that on the 747-400 using the one ear off method of wearing the headset meant that the volume had to be circa 12 dB above ambient to hear effectively.
It was found that hearing loss was being caused in the headset ear for this reason.
The company now fit Sennheiser ANR headsets to all fleets and intercom is SOP for all fleets with a couple of minor variations.
Two interesting observations on the 747-400 many refused to use the intercom and continued to use one ear off because 'it was a short-haul/BEA idea' (1-11s and I believe Tridents used intercom)! Also the 777 flight deck is so quiet that one ear off is rumoured to be comfortable and also more sociable as a spin off.
I fly the 757/767 and the headsets are a very good considering the appalling ambient noise levels on some of the 757s. I find my volumes are set to minimum most of the time. HF is also easier with both ears covered using an ANR headset.
The headsets are slightly anti - social in that when the CC come in one has to remove one earpiece to converse. They are also very expensive, circa £400 I believe.
I care about my future hearing and carry small ear plugs for use in nightclubs down route and wear ear defenders when using a hammer drill etc at home. I suspect that many youngsters today are storing a whole load of trouble for the future with our penchant for deafening music volumes in the car, nightclubs etc. I may look a pratt but at least I will be able to hear you telling me!
It was found that hearing loss was being caused in the headset ear for this reason.
The company now fit Sennheiser ANR headsets to all fleets and intercom is SOP for all fleets with a couple of minor variations.
Two interesting observations on the 747-400 many refused to use the intercom and continued to use one ear off because 'it was a short-haul/BEA idea' (1-11s and I believe Tridents used intercom)! Also the 777 flight deck is so quiet that one ear off is rumoured to be comfortable and also more sociable as a spin off.
I fly the 757/767 and the headsets are a very good considering the appalling ambient noise levels on some of the 757s. I find my volumes are set to minimum most of the time. HF is also easier with both ears covered using an ANR headset.
The headsets are slightly anti - social in that when the CC come in one has to remove one earpiece to converse. They are also very expensive, circa £400 I believe.
I care about my future hearing and carry small ear plugs for use in nightclubs down route and wear ear defenders when using a hammer drill etc at home. I suspect that many youngsters today are storing a whole load of trouble for the future with our penchant for deafening music volumes in the car, nightclubs etc. I may look a pratt but at least I will be able to hear you telling me!
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Loss of hearing are usually due to very loud noise which kills the hearing nerves cells in the ear. Noise produced in a 737 even in a decomp situation will not cause as much harm as being around loud music area as mentioned by M.Mouse. So if anyone is losing any hearing, he should seriously look into other areas too before jumping into conclusion and further deteoriate the situation. There are 15000 hearing cells and once lost cannot be recovered.
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Spot on Nighthawk.
Have to say that in over 40 years worth of flying my hearing gradually dropped by 10-15%. Doesn't sound much but the difficulties in hearing in certain conditions is now, to say the least, awkward. You can never regain lost hearing but it can get worse. Never failed a Class 1 though.
All down to noisy flight decks.
Have to say that in over 40 years worth of flying my hearing gradually dropped by 10-15%. Doesn't sound much but the difficulties in hearing in certain conditions is now, to say the least, awkward. You can never regain lost hearing but it can get worse. Never failed a Class 1 though.
All down to noisy flight decks.
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After a few years on piston aircraft (DC-6, DC-7) the jets today are positively quiet. The B707 has the same nose profile as the B737, and yes, it IS noisy, especially at 330 knots which was common in the 707. I have ALWAYS worn a headset and NEVER allowed speakers, ever. This makes it much better for all and especially protects the hearing of the younger guys.
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Nighthawk,
Some (very) loud music has not in the least the detrimental effect as continious noise on flightdeck. Fact.
A continuous sound level of 80 dB or more will, in the end, cause hearing loss. Fact.
The noise level in B767 flightdeck exceeds 90 dB on occasion and is over 85 dB most of the time. Fact.
ANR technology is working superbly to reduce continuous noise up to -15 dB. This will also result in a lower audio volume selection to hear ATC or crewmembers. Fact.
KLM has abandoned ANR headsets introduction because of cost considerations. Even a pilot's own ANR headset may not be worn in KLM aircraft. Fact.
SJ
Some (very) loud music has not in the least the detrimental effect as continious noise on flightdeck. Fact.
A continuous sound level of 80 dB or more will, in the end, cause hearing loss. Fact.
The noise level in B767 flightdeck exceeds 90 dB on occasion and is over 85 dB most of the time. Fact.
ANR technology is working superbly to reduce continuous noise up to -15 dB. This will also result in a lower audio volume selection to hear ATC or crewmembers. Fact.
KLM has abandoned ANR headsets introduction because of cost considerations. Even a pilot's own ANR headset may not be worn in KLM aircraft. Fact.
SJ
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I'm just wondering if those ANR headsets are really doing a good job. I just found in our airplane (we're flying a jet with headsets on all the time) that if I switch off the interphone, ATC becomes cristal clear (no side noise anymore). So it must come from the microphone that picks up the noise in the cockpit.
Are those ANR headsets able to cancel the noise picked up by the mic?
Are those ANR headsets able to cancel the noise picked up by the mic?
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I used a Telex ANR500 in the 747 and found it very good at killing noise, yet still able to talk cross-cockpit easily. It even has a on-headset volume control for those intercom boxes that are near impossible to modulate properly. The ear pieces fit on top of the ear rather than all around it like some other noise attenuating headsets. It's also not as expensive as the Sensennheiser's (sp?). Very lightweight and fits on top of your Jepps in your kit bag. It's TSO'd too.
[ 08 August 2001: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]
[ 08 August 2001: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]
