Engine Fire
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Engine Fire
In a turbo prop, in flight, if the T-handle/fire handle illuminates indicating an engine fire, would there be any other indications of the fire on the engine gauges (ie. high ITT, excessive fuel flow etc) or. Is it possible to confirm the presence of a fire by looking at the gauges or looking at the engine? If there were no other indications could you be certain that the illumiated handle was a false alarm? Would you shut it down if everything seems fine (other than the big red handle)? Thanks.
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Unfortunately there will be no other indication of a fire.
You may notice an increase in fuel flow if you have a honking big fuel leak ( only if downsteam of the fuel flow transmitter though )
There is also the possiblity your fire may not be fuel related. Hydraulic fluids and oil burn well.
You may notice an increase in fuel flow if you have a honking big fuel leak ( only if downsteam of the fuel flow transmitter though )
There is also the possiblity your fire may not be fuel related. Hydraulic fluids and oil burn well.
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....And the FIRE handle is only so called so as to give you an idea what it's for.
The detection loops only indicate a change in potential difference which is due to an increase in temperature, such as may happen if there is a fire.
The only aviation guessing game I like is the Frankfurt Left or Right prize draw!
The detection loops only indicate a change in potential difference which is due to an increase in temperature, such as may happen if there is a fire.
The only aviation guessing game I like is the Frankfurt Left or Right prize draw!
Props are for boats!
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Well if you go through your drills and shut down the engine. Then check for fire if the fire is still there ie, T handle illuminated then continue with Emergency Shut off valve and Pull that dam handle. Assuming your talking Otter ? 
Land ASAP,, if it isnt out, you may have to ditch! In a light twin you have around 5 minutes before structural damage affects your aframe. Ie. flight characteristcs. SO GET IT ON THE GROUND ASAP IS ALL I CAN SAY.
I used to fly Old King Airs that had thermal loops and the Sun at the rowrong time of day gave Fire WARNINGS on the announciator panel.
Regards
Sheep
Land ASAP,, if it isnt out, you may have to ditch! In a light twin you have around 5 minutes before structural damage affects your aframe. Ie. flight characteristcs. SO GET IT ON THE GROUND ASAP IS ALL I CAN SAY.
I used to fly Old King Airs that had thermal loops and the Sun at the rowrong time of day gave Fire WARNINGS on the announciator panel.
Regards
Sheep
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And then there are pilots who 'know' better...
At one company not all that long ago, was informed by the Flight Engineer concerned, that the Captain, on noticing the light in the number one engine fire handle illuminated (and the fire bell ringing) decided, all on his own, that there was really no fire, so removed the bulbs from said fire handle, and completed the flight (across water) for the remaining four hours.
Should mention that this occured in the climb from the departure airport.
Reminds me of the old song..."all the monkies aren't in the zoo, every day you meet quite a few...."
Hogy Carmichael, circa 1934
Should mention that this occured in the climb from the departure airport.
Reminds me of the old song..."all the monkies aren't in the zoo, every day you meet quite a few...."
Hogy Carmichael, circa 1934
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Sheep Guts,
The KingAirs you mention were not fitted with thermal loops but Infra Red light detectors. That's why a glorious red sunset/sunrise would trigger the engine fire warning, because the light entered the engine cowls.
The 'fix' for this (though it wasn't a 100% fix) was to fit a steel cresent plate to the exhaust flange to reduce the chance of light entering via the gap 'twixt cowl and jet pipe.
The KingAirs you mention were not fitted with thermal loops but Infra Red light detectors. That's why a glorious red sunset/sunrise would trigger the engine fire warning, because the light entered the engine cowls.
The 'fix' for this (though it wasn't a 100% fix) was to fit a steel cresent plate to the exhaust flange to reduce the chance of light entering via the gap 'twixt cowl and jet pipe.
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''The KingAirs you mention were not fitted with thermal loops but Infra Red light detectors''.
That is amazing! how about sending the designer on a long over water flight during a glorious sunset.
Reminds of Carparks designed by people who don't drive/park cars.
That is amazing! how about sending the designer on a long over water flight during a glorious sunset.
Reminds of Carparks designed by people who don't drive/park cars.
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haaron,
modern turbo-prop engines are so tightly cowled that it is unlikely that any external sign of fire will be visible. As noted above, there is not likely to be any engine instrument indication of a fire.
Only a very brave person would decide not to take the fire warning as real and ignore it. As a generalisation, most turboprops will fly safely with an engine shutdown, provided the recommended techniques are used.
So, to answer your second last question, there will most likely be no other indications of an engine fire other than handle & bell.
To answer your last question. I would not hesitate to shut the engine down if the handle was illuminated and the fire bell sounding. To do otherwise is to me, allowing the tail to wag the dog, as it presumes that the warning is false and so I'll ignore it in case I shut a good engine down. When the thought process should be, I've got an engine fire, I'll shut the engine down, land and have the fault investigated.
The dilemma would be if one of, the fire handle illuminated, or fire bell sounded, but not both. In this instance one might consider the possibility of a false indication and depending on a whole lot of factors one migh not shut down the engine if over inhositable terrain. However if near a suitable airfield, one would possibly consider a landing and investigation.
With reference to KingAir false fire warnings, if memory serves me, the first action on receipt of a fire warning in a LingAir is to turn through 90° and see if the warning goes out. If it does and it was daylight when the warning sounded, it may be assumed that the warning is false and a result of sunlight triggering the sensors.
Only a very brave person would decide not to take the fire warning as real and ignore it. As a generalisation, most turboprops will fly safely with an engine shutdown, provided the recommended techniques are used.
So, to answer your second last question, there will most likely be no other indications of an engine fire other than handle & bell.
To answer your last question. I would not hesitate to shut the engine down if the handle was illuminated and the fire bell sounding. To do otherwise is to me, allowing the tail to wag the dog, as it presumes that the warning is false and so I'll ignore it in case I shut a good engine down. When the thought process should be, I've got an engine fire, I'll shut the engine down, land and have the fault investigated.
The dilemma would be if one of, the fire handle illuminated, or fire bell sounded, but not both. In this instance one might consider the possibility of a false indication and depending on a whole lot of factors one migh not shut down the engine if over inhositable terrain. However if near a suitable airfield, one would possibly consider a landing and investigation.
With reference to KingAir false fire warnings, if memory serves me, the first action on receipt of a fire warning in a LingAir is to turn through 90° and see if the warning goes out. If it does and it was daylight when the warning sounded, it may be assumed that the warning is false and a result of sunlight triggering the sensors.
Most engine true fire warnings are not fuel fed combustions but rather hot air leaks from bleeds etc. Thus pulling a engine back to idle may be enough to silence the alarm.
Shutting an engine down in a critical flight regime at low altitude is not easy to restart if you later need it.
I believe that many FCOM recommend pull back to idle and only to fire a bottle (which cuts the fuel) if the fire bell remains.
Shutting an engine down in a critical flight regime at low altitude is not easy to restart if you later need it.
I believe that many FCOM recommend pull back to idle and only to fire a bottle (which cuts the fuel) if the fire bell remains.
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lomapaseo
I would suspect that you are thinking jet FCOM here. I've never seen such a one on a t-prop.
Back to the question at hand, I would always treat a fire as real. Even at low speeds, any indication that would be visible would be about a km behind the aircraft unless you had a whopping big fire going. I would always pull the handle and head back S/E unless there was no way to stay aloft on one. My one experience was with a max weight HS748 on a hot day (28C) at 400' AGL. As turboprops go, that is about as bad as you are going to get. We shut down and returned on one. The only problem was that the captain selected gear down a bit too far out, and we burned A LOT of water/methanol to maintain until we made the runway! Turned out to be a bad fire wire, but who knew?
Given just about anything else with a turbine engine, flying on one with a professional crew (as opposed to a weekend flyer who logs about 60hrs a year)is much less dangerous than living with a POSSIBLE fire on board.
I would suspect that you are thinking jet FCOM here. I've never seen such a one on a t-prop.
Back to the question at hand, I would always treat a fire as real. Even at low speeds, any indication that would be visible would be about a km behind the aircraft unless you had a whopping big fire going. I would always pull the handle and head back S/E unless there was no way to stay aloft on one. My one experience was with a max weight HS748 on a hot day (28C) at 400' AGL. As turboprops go, that is about as bad as you are going to get. We shut down and returned on one. The only problem was that the captain selected gear down a bit too far out, and we burned A LOT of water/methanol to maintain until we made the runway! Turned out to be a bad fire wire, but who knew?
Given just about anything else with a turbine engine, flying on one with a professional crew (as opposed to a weekend flyer who logs about 60hrs a year)is much less dangerous than living with a POSSIBLE fire on board.
Props are for boats!
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Yes mono thanks I stand corrected Infr Red sensors were fitted. Really wierd really.
Regards
sheep
P.S. allways do your Memory immediately dependant on Type and pull Out the QRH..... TO CHECK AND DOUBLE CHECK
Regards
sheep
P.S. allways do your Memory immediately dependant on Type and pull Out the QRH..... TO CHECK AND DOUBLE CHECK
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Hot Dog,
Yes, suspect they would, however was a TriStar.
Simply cannot understand why a so called professional would take chances this way.
The company took a very dim view of the situation when they found out. This was after he told the Flight Engineer not to put anything in the tech log.
Yes, suspect they would, however was a TriStar.
Simply cannot understand why a so called professional would take chances this way.
The company took a very dim view of the situation when they found out. This was after he told the Flight Engineer not to put anything in the tech log.
Moose, did you ever get an engine fire indication on the Dart, after shut down, due to high internal temps? That can happen, although it never did to me in about 15,000 hours on 'em.
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Never had a fire warning on a Dart after shutdown, but some of the earlier Dart 6 machines would give a momentary warning during a prolonged climb in very hot, like ISA plus 25 or more, conditions. The trick was to lower the nose and get some airflow going and the warning would quickly stop.
With this knowledge in my background, I once nearly got myself and crew killed while doing some hot weather/short runway certification work on a much more powerful version of the same aircraft type. We were doing successive water meth takeoffs to measure unstick distances, followed by a split arse reversal turn to dump it back on the reciprocal direction runway, roll through, line up and go again. So it was getting pretty warm in the engine bays, and when the fire warning came on momentarily at about V2 plus 10, my initial reaction was to ignore it, especially as it did not remain on as speed increased. Fortunately, a pilot sitting down the back heard the bell, looked outside, and as luck would have it, saw flames on the inboard side of the cowl. He alerted us to the fire and we promptly did the drill and landed.
A combustion chamber had burnt through, heating up the firewire, then turned into a blowtorch and taken out the firewire and just about ate through some of the engine control linkages
in the 30 or so seconds that it took us to do the drill.
We did not observe any loss in engine power, or change in TGT, presumably because the water meth was pouring in at a great rate to compensate for the inefficient combustion chamber.
So, after that experience I will always, but always, at least shut the engine down just to get the fuel out of the equation. Whether to activate the fire bottle is really dependant on what the checklist says regarding warnings present, but the moral has to be 'if in doubt, fire the bottle'.
With this knowledge in my background, I once nearly got myself and crew killed while doing some hot weather/short runway certification work on a much more powerful version of the same aircraft type. We were doing successive water meth takeoffs to measure unstick distances, followed by a split arse reversal turn to dump it back on the reciprocal direction runway, roll through, line up and go again. So it was getting pretty warm in the engine bays, and when the fire warning came on momentarily at about V2 plus 10, my initial reaction was to ignore it, especially as it did not remain on as speed increased. Fortunately, a pilot sitting down the back heard the bell, looked outside, and as luck would have it, saw flames on the inboard side of the cowl. He alerted us to the fire and we promptly did the drill and landed.
A combustion chamber had burnt through, heating up the firewire, then turned into a blowtorch and taken out the firewire and just about ate through some of the engine control linkages
in the 30 or so seconds that it took us to do the drill.
We did not observe any loss in engine power, or change in TGT, presumably because the water meth was pouring in at a great rate to compensate for the inefficient combustion chamber.
So, after that experience I will always, but always, at least shut the engine down just to get the fuel out of the equation. Whether to activate the fire bottle is really dependant on what the checklist says regarding warnings present, but the moral has to be 'if in doubt, fire the bottle'.
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pigboat,
I have less than 2000 with the darts, and I've only heard the rumours of post shutdown fire indications. Other than the false alarm I wrote about above, the only time I heard the bell in flight was when Lyle Griffith got bored
fruitbat
That sounds like one spooky trip! Right up there with the 748 that had it's water meth tanks filled with waste varsol and fuel. Scary at the time but positively petrifying afterwards when you see what actually happened.
I have less than 2000 with the darts, and I've only heard the rumours of post shutdown fire indications. Other than the false alarm I wrote about above, the only time I heard the bell in flight was when Lyle Griffith got bored
fruitbat
That sounds like one spooky trip! Right up there with the 748 that had it's water meth tanks filled with waste varsol and fuel. Scary at the time but positively petrifying afterwards when you see what actually happened.
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Bleed air leaks can be trouble
"lomapaseo Most engine true fire warnings are not fuel fed combustions but rather hot air leaks from bleeds etc. Thus pulling a engine back to idle may be enough to silence the alarm. "
Bleed air leaks can be trouble.
There was an event where a 13th stage bleed air leak had hot air flowing over an area where fuel vapors were possible ( I cannot recall if it was a pump housing). Because of the way the leak flowed, there was no fire indication, only erratic changes in N1. Idle brought all indications back to near-normal, but a fast return to the departure airport (from 40 nm out to sea) was accomplished. When the mechanic opened the cowl, the look on his face was memorable, as he pointed out the possibility of fuel vapor ignition. It would have been better to shut it down in-flight, but there were no indications to lead us that way.
Bleed air leaks can be trouble.
There was an event where a 13th stage bleed air leak had hot air flowing over an area where fuel vapors were possible ( I cannot recall if it was a pump housing). Because of the way the leak flowed, there was no fire indication, only erratic changes in N1. Idle brought all indications back to near-normal, but a fast return to the departure airport (from 40 nm out to sea) was accomplished. When the mechanic opened the cowl, the look on his face was memorable, as he pointed out the possibility of fuel vapor ignition. It would have been better to shut it down in-flight, but there were no indications to lead us that way.
Geez fruitbat, that's pretty damn scary. Make a believer outta a person.
Apparently the after shutdown warning could occur after a fairly long ground idle at high ambient temps and was caused by high oil temperatures.
The DC-4M was a pressurized version of the DC-4 re-engined with RR Merlins. The early models had no shortage of teething problems, not the least of which was false fire warnings. I had a friend who flew them as F/O, and one day between Toronto and Winnipeg all four went off at once. Walt said he nearly soiled his skivvies, but the Captain just said a few choice words, cancelled the bells and whistles and kept on going.
Moose, which 748 was that, the one on Anticosti Island or the one in Churchill?
Apparently the after shutdown warning could occur after a fairly long ground idle at high ambient temps and was caused by high oil temperatures.
The DC-4M was a pressurized version of the DC-4 re-engined with RR Merlins. The early models had no shortage of teething problems, not the least of which was false fire warnings. I had a friend who flew them as F/O, and one day between Toronto and Winnipeg all four went off at once. Walt said he nearly soiled his skivvies, but the Captain just said a few choice words, cancelled the bells and whistles and kept on going.
Moose, which 748 was that, the one on Anticosti Island or the one in Churchill?