switching mode on A-320 autobrakes
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switching mode on A-320 autobrakes
I was flying with a new F/O, he was the flying pilot. Autobrake was set at low, he landed a little long and upon landing he pushed the autobrake slector to medium. Normal deceleration and we cleared the rwy with plenty of room to spare.
Is this proper, never seen it done before.
I am scared to think what would have happened, should his hand have slipped and hit max. "Ups, sorry folks!!"
Any suggestions or comments greatly appreciated.
Is this proper, never seen it done before.
I am scared to think what would have happened, should his hand have slipped and hit max. "Ups, sorry folks!!"
Any suggestions or comments greatly appreciated.
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I would suspect the FO was trying to demostrate his expertise...NOT. I also would be concerned if he hit max, and what was he doing messing with the brake switch when he should be flying. He should have disconnected the auto brakes using the pedal brakes, and brought the aircraft to a stop. I've had a max brake landing, and its not pretty.
[This message has been edited by Iceman49 (edited 18 September 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Iceman49 (edited 18 September 2000).]
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We also had a few F/O's who were selecting the Brake Fan at about 60kts. Very soon a memo came out to stop this practice since it's so easy to confuse the brake fan with the autobrake p/b's. Now it's not permitted until vacating the rwy.
I fully agree that it is very easy to make a mistake and besides on roll out both pilots should focus on the aircraft and not p/b's.
I fully agree that it is very easy to make a mistake and besides on roll out both pilots should focus on the aircraft and not p/b's.
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I had a Captain 'teach' me that setting LO initially, then waiting for the decel light and selecting MED gave a much smoother and generally better roll-out than manual brakes or selecting MED to start with. He would reach across and select MED a few secs after landing (still doing lotsofknots!)
I did NOT appreciate...
a) him sticking his head in to find a non-essential pb at a particularly eventful stage of flight
b) as you say, the possibility of him selecting the wrong switch and hitting MAX
Also had another LHS select MAX instead of BRK FAN as we were vacating with the spoilers still extended - PAX did not enjoy..
Worse still the cabin crew told frightened pax that F/O had probably just missed the turning and had to brake hard! B*stards!
Now I do NOT delay before disarming spoilers, don't look forward to inspecting PFD that closely again
I did NOT appreciate...
a) him sticking his head in to find a non-essential pb at a particularly eventful stage of flight
b) as you say, the possibility of him selecting the wrong switch and hitting MAX
Also had another LHS select MAX instead of BRK FAN as we were vacating with the spoilers still extended - PAX did not enjoy..
Worse still the cabin crew told frightened pax that F/O had probably just missed the turning and had to brake hard! B*stards!
Now I do NOT delay before disarming spoilers, don't look forward to inspecting PFD that closely again
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Now this blows my mind. I don't think that any airline's manuals nor Airbus manuals talk about messing with things like that during landing roll-out!!
And in the grand scheme of a successful and safe flight, trying to find the smoothest transisiton from auto to foot braking has very little importance, definitely not enough to make you try to develop your own little 'menu' of brake ops without knowing the exact technical intricacies of what this brake-by-wire system is exactlly doing at any given moment, this is just an incident waiting to happen, besides the distraction during such a critical phase of flight.
If you can't leave it alone, try it in the sim, with an engineer who knows what this brake system is doing. Either design a better system and propose it to the manufacturer or do what the system is designed for. Stick with your SOP.
And in the grand scheme of a successful and safe flight, trying to find the smoothest transisiton from auto to foot braking has very little importance, definitely not enough to make you try to develop your own little 'menu' of brake ops without knowing the exact technical intricacies of what this brake-by-wire system is exactlly doing at any given moment, this is just an incident waiting to happen, besides the distraction during such a critical phase of flight.
If you can't leave it alone, try it in the sim, with an engineer who knows what this brake system is doing. Either design a better system and propose it to the manufacturer or do what the system is designed for. Stick with your SOP.
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Well whilst operating the 757 I frequently had to switch the autobrake up one level; after the F/O landed very deep and seemed totally unconcerned about the rate of decelleration. ( Not much chance of getting it wrong though with the foolproof boeing knob).
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What is wrong with pressing on the brake pedals? This chap is going to get the shock of his life when he either inadvertently selects max autobrake due to making a selection without looking or goes off the side of the runway because he/she is looking inside when they should be looking outside. Very poor airmanship indeed, just because you have a professional licence does not stop you being an ameteur.
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I have had a Captain hitting the autobrake pb on landing too. I was relatively new and we were landing in medium, as per company policy. I'd literally just touched down when I noticed him lean over slightly, followed by the brakes "failing". Obviously I continued with manual braking, but he said nothing. Once at a safe speed I asked him about it, and he just said "well we had lots of runway left so I thought we didn't need medium autobrake". I suggested that he tell me if he wanted me to go manual braking, and if he did decide to hit a button, he should have mentioned it anyway.
However, this is the same Captain, who, on an Airbus, decided to "help" once with a landing of mine. He had decided that it was possible I might not flare enough (where he got that from I have no idea, I hadn't done a bad landing up until then). As I had already started the flare, his input (without telling me) meant that we did a bit of a balloon. With 2 of us putting inputs to the stick, we got it on the ground.
On the taxi in he admitted to "helping me with the flare". I mentioned that was why we had ballooned, and why had't he called "I have control" or pushed the takeover pb? He didn't do that again, and I hope he never will.
None of this was standard procedure, obviously, but it is a bit worrying in the right hand seat, especially on a new type, when the Captain excludes you from the loop and insists on doing non standard things without even telling you.
However, this is the same Captain, who, on an Airbus, decided to "help" once with a landing of mine. He had decided that it was possible I might not flare enough (where he got that from I have no idea, I hadn't done a bad landing up until then). As I had already started the flare, his input (without telling me) meant that we did a bit of a balloon. With 2 of us putting inputs to the stick, we got it on the ground.
On the taxi in he admitted to "helping me with the flare". I mentioned that was why we had ballooned, and why had't he called "I have control" or pushed the takeover pb? He didn't do that again, and I hope he never will.
None of this was standard procedure, obviously, but it is a bit worrying in the right hand seat, especially on a new type, when the Captain excludes you from the loop and insists on doing non standard things without even telling you.
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Seems like this Capt of yours doesn't understand the Airbus. His stick inputs add to yours, not 'correct' them! That absolutely screws it up, I'm glad you didn't have a tailstrike with stuff like that during the flare. This guy is ripe for a good talk with professional standards, because I'm sure they taught him the importance of not having dual inputs on the controls.
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veewunrotate and atomic - thanks for the back-up...quite new F/O appreciates that he is not losing his mind as well as his airmanship...
Tho' he actually bullied me into it again today - this CRM thing is a load of b0llocks if the Capts. take questioning as criticism and cockiness...what is my f*cking job if not to question things I don't understand or agree with? It seems your ATPL only counts if you have more than 4000hrs. I am downright fed up.
Tho' he actually bullied me into it again today - this CRM thing is a load of b0llocks if the Capts. take questioning as criticism and cockiness...what is my f*cking job if not to question things I don't understand or agree with? It seems your ATPL only counts if you have more than 4000hrs. I am downright fed up.
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FatEric, I`m on 330/340 only, what was the OEB re. Ibiza if you don`t mind. I don`t recall ever reading anything about changine autobrake selections after gear down on the other buses, and you have got me curious.
Threetwenty, If I had a dollar... Got to sympathise with you. Question something with the wrong person, and next thing you know..
Threetwenty, If I had a dollar... Got to sympathise with you. Question something with the wrong person, and next thing you know..
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I don't think the Ibiza accident was to do with changing selections after gear down. I think it was more to do with the fact that one of the brake computer channels had failed during flight and then the other one failed but only one registered as a fault. They landed in low autobrake so nothing much happens at the beginning anyway, and it was a bit late that they realised they had no brakes, and overran the runway. No doubt the passengers wanted a beach holiday, what more could they want than door to door service and a free go on the slides?! 
(No pleasing some people......!!!!). Sorry, I shouldn't make light of it.
I think after that the autobrake had to be armed by pressing the pb for at least a couple of seconds after this incident and A320 crews had to reset the "anti-skid and nosewheel steering" in flight, to ensure both channels were working.
Think its all fixed now though.
(No pleasing some people......!!!!). Sorry, I shouldn't make light of it.I think after that the autobrake had to be armed by pressing the pb for at least a couple of seconds after this incident and A320 crews had to reset the "anti-skid and nosewheel steering" in flight, to ensure both channels were working.
Think its all fixed now though.
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The A320 Autobrake problem is not rectified -hence the 2 second push when arming. The problem (Ibiza) could re-occur if the pb is pushed for the right length of time ( .5 of a second or similar). The OEB in question forbids selection of Autobrake while LG is down.
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OEB137/1, was issued in Sep98, concerns the non availability of alternate brakes due to water freezing in the BDDV valve cover. The airbus recommendation was, "if the autobrake is to be used at landing:
-Before landing gear extension:
-Appropriate autobrake mode.....SELECT
-Press the autobrake pushbutton firmly for at least 1 second to ensure that the autobrake system is properly armed."
The remainder of the procedure concerns the BSCU resets. Also the BDDV valve covers have been fixed so as to preclude water freezing in them.
-Before landing gear extension:
-Appropriate autobrake mode.....SELECT
-Press the autobrake pushbutton firmly for at least 1 second to ensure that the autobrake system is properly armed."
The remainder of the procedure concerns the BSCU resets. Also the BDDV valve covers have been fixed so as to preclude water freezing in them.
