cargo fire
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cargo fire
On a recent B767 LOFT scenario I was given cargo fire. Company SOP’s state U cannot open cargo doors before disembarking pax. QRH, divert, etc.I used all available resources to get info incl CC feedback but did not have indications of smoke or heat from cabin. “CARGO FIRE” light did not extinguish. After landing fire marshal checked skin for heat and any other clues and reported none. I elected to “deplane” pax after vacating the RW as stairs were avail, rather than evacuate. Boss said should have evac, coz no positive proof (understand visual identification) of absence of fire was avail with cargo doors closed. Tried FSF, seems dey won’t commit.
Comments?
Comments?
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Tricky one, 'cause if you evacuate, then people will get hurt going down the slides, however, if you don't evac, and then fire suddenly erupts whilst pax go down the stairs, then even more casualties will occur.
I guess if you've still got your 'cargo fire' indication on the flight deck, and the fire service can't make a proper evaluation with the door shut, then I guess you have to think the worst, and get the pax out down the chutes.
Happened to a BA Classic which landed in the Azores with a cargo fire warning, and the Capt evacuated the pax down the slides in very strong winds (one slide went up over the fuselage if I remember correctly!).Turned out the fire indication was nothing more than fruit in the hold sweating and giving off vapours.
Just got to do your best on the day.
I guess if you've still got your 'cargo fire' indication on the flight deck, and the fire service can't make a proper evaluation with the door shut, then I guess you have to think the worst, and get the pax out down the chutes.
Happened to a BA Classic which landed in the Azores with a cargo fire warning, and the Capt evacuated the pax down the slides in very strong winds (one slide went up over the fuselage if I remember correctly!).Turned out the fire indication was nothing more than fruit in the hold sweating and giving off vapours.
Just got to do your best on the day.
swish266
Given the nature of the fire detection system, I have always assumed that the fire indications would remain even if the fire had extinguished. The detector heads are looking at particle presence rather than temperature and popping a couple of extinguishers into the hold (I would have thought) would have produced a fair amount of particle presence. The only methods I can think of for reassurance as to what is going on would be the hold temp indications and asking 'Doris' to take her shoes off and stand over the hold area!!
I don't know of any definitive info on this but that's, presumably, because it's not an area for easy experimentation.
Given the nature of the fire detection system, I have always assumed that the fire indications would remain even if the fire had extinguished. The detector heads are looking at particle presence rather than temperature and popping a couple of extinguishers into the hold (I would have thought) would have produced a fair amount of particle presence. The only methods I can think of for reassurance as to what is going on would be the hold temp indications and asking 'Doris' to take her shoes off and stand over the hold area!!
I don't know of any definitive info on this but that's, presumably, because it's not an area for easy experimentation.
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i would evac first.
if old ladies who break their legs going down the slide, are going to sue the company/you later, that's another issue.
if the indications are present and, AND making sure the bottle lights are illuminated, i would evac. esp if the guy behind the panel is dragging his feet about giving you positive indications.
you could solicit for opinions about your fuselage from the tower, you could ask the cabin crew about the state of the cabin, but that is valuable time spent.
if old ladies who break their legs going down the slide, are going to sue the company/you later, that's another issue.
if the indications are present and, AND making sure the bottle lights are illuminated, i would evac. esp if the guy behind the panel is dragging his feet about giving you positive indications.
you could solicit for opinions about your fuselage from the tower, you could ask the cabin crew about the state of the cabin, but that is valuable time spent.
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Had a cargo fire a long time ago in a DC6, and as the compartment was a class C, the extinguiser did its intended job.
Tha cabin was not evacuated...used the boarding stairs. Slides were very primitive affairs at that time, resulting in many injuries.
Not good.
Tha cabin was not evacuated...used the boarding stairs. Slides were very primitive affairs at that time, resulting in many injuries.
Not good.
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Tnx C Jack!
Dis particle thing is interesting, and u r abs right - in d NNCKL dere is nothing bout lights goin out. Dis takes my investigation a step further. "Doris" if u mean Cabin C reported no temp on d floor plates neither fumes in d cabin. As the cargo fire was only d last complication of d LOFT(hav already lost 1 eng, 2 main gen n some hydraulics), I suspected right from d beginning false indication...
Dis particle thing is interesting, and u r abs right - in d NNCKL dere is nothing bout lights goin out. Dis takes my investigation a step further. "Doris" if u mean Cabin C reported no temp on d floor plates neither fumes in d cabin. As the cargo fire was only d last complication of d LOFT(hav already lost 1 eng, 2 main gen n some hydraulics), I suspected right from d beginning false indication...
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In my opinion, with the absence of any indication other than the fire warning itself I would deplane as you did... The second there is the presence of heat or smoke or anything suggesting nasty stuff afoot, upgrade to an evacuation.
Lancer
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On the other hand, if you have a fire warning and no positive confirmation that the fire is out/it's a false warning you should bear in mind that after a fire MAY come an explosion!
I've heard of people being censured for not evacuating, not the other way round.
Just my 2d.
I've heard of people being censured for not evacuating, not the other way round.
Just my 2d.
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I'm with Blue Eagle and the others on this one. I would evacuate the aircraft.
If you're wrong then then the worst case is that some people have sustained injuries evacuating the aircraft for a false warning.
But what if you decide not to evacuate and you're wrong ?
In summary the worst case scenario from evacuating the aircraft is a lot better than than the worst case scenario from opting no to do so.
If you're wrong then then the worst case is that some people have sustained injuries evacuating the aircraft for a false warning.
But what if you decide not to evacuate and you're wrong ?
In summary the worst case scenario from evacuating the aircraft is a lot better than than the worst case scenario from opting no to do so.
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lancer, if you have decided to deplane your pax instead of an evacuation, the doors will have been disarmed already. So how would you go about an evacuation if it subsequently became necessary? What about steps or airbridge at the doors still? Follow the QRH and you are safe.
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HotDog, there are procedures in place (in the QRH) to deplane and sill allow for an evacuation upgrade. Only the doors in use are disarmed - that still leaves all but one armed and guarded. Every time it's discussed the instructors are careful to point out that an upgrade can come from a precautionary...
Of course, as BlueEagle suggested, you might just blow up. What's the real possibility of this happening? How insulated is the CWT (and any fuel lines) from the cargo hold? Or is it purely academic...
Lancer
Of course, as BlueEagle suggested, you might just blow up. What's the real possibility of this happening? How insulated is the CWT (and any fuel lines) from the cargo hold? Or is it purely academic...
Lancer
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With a cargo fire warning, you haven't got time to evaluate whether it's real or false. Evacuate! You certainly would not waste time taxiing to the ramp, even if they let you. Nor would you want to wait for mobile steps to be positioned at your aircraft. You might get a few injuries from the slide evacuation, far better then hundreds dying like in the cargo fire of the L1011 in Ryadh many years ago.
19 August 1980; Saudia L1011-200; Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: The crew turned back shortly after takeoff after a fire broke out in the aft cargo compartment. The aircraft was able to execute a safe landing, but the crew was unable to open the emergency exits due to the smoke and fire. All 14 crew members and 287 passengers were killed
19 August 1980; Saudia L1011-200; Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: The crew turned back shortly after takeoff after a fire broke out in the aft cargo compartment. The aircraft was able to execute a safe landing, but the crew was unable to open the emergency exits due to the smoke and fire. All 14 crew members and 287 passengers were killed
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Hot Dog
As far as I know, the Saudia Tristar became a disaster because the crew did not stop the a/c immediately - they kept coasting down the runway, all in all it was a shame, but if you refer to the my initial input, there was no positive indication of fire at the time I decided to deplane at the end of the LOFT...
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Swish266 the Saudia Tristar disaster happened because the outflow valves were closed and the cabin was still pressurised so they couldn't open the doors to evacuate, even if they wanted to. However that's not the point of this discussion. My point and most everybody elses, including your sim instructor's was that you should have ordered an evacuation. All well and good to say the fire crew didn't see any sign of a fire inside the closed cargo hold. Your landing at the first available could have been in Whoop Whoop with no ground support whatsoever or if there were, without the language skills to communicate. What to do? Evacuate.
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767ER bottle discharge
"Company SOP’s state U cannot open cargo doors before disembarking pax. "
I was wondering about this and found that the second and third bottles "discharge thirty minutes later, or at touchdown, and are metered into the affected compartment to maintain the required concentration of extinguishing agent."
If it has been less than 30 minutes since you first pushed the discharge button, you are going to get fresh agent in the selected cargo bin right at touchdown.
Perhaps it was determined that this would provide at least equal effectiveness compared to what ARF (airport rescue & firefighting) could offer by opening up and doing their thing. It may also have been a general statement meant to cover all situations, allowing some discretion by the Captain.
This is one of those rare "fast" emergencies where time could mean everything. It is a critical decision whether to evacuate or taxi in.
It is a safe, sound, and supportable decision to evacuate. The risk of taxiing in to the gate might be an unacceptable risk.
I was wondering about this and found that the second and third bottles "discharge thirty minutes later, or at touchdown, and are metered into the affected compartment to maintain the required concentration of extinguishing agent."
If it has been less than 30 minutes since you first pushed the discharge button, you are going to get fresh agent in the selected cargo bin right at touchdown.
Perhaps it was determined that this would provide at least equal effectiveness compared to what ARF (airport rescue & firefighting) could offer by opening up and doing their thing. It may also have been a general statement meant to cover all situations, allowing some discretion by the Captain.
This is one of those rare "fast" emergencies where time could mean everything. It is a critical decision whether to evacuate or taxi in.
It is a safe, sound, and supportable decision to evacuate. The risk of taxiing in to the gate might be an unacceptable risk.
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None, Hot Dog
Tnx for your input.
The LOFT made it possible to choose FRA. I landed there.
It looks so far that guys are 2 : 1 for evac...
The Boss might have been right in the end.
The LOFT made it possible to choose FRA. I landed there.
It looks so far that guys are 2 : 1 for evac...
The Boss might have been right in the end.
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We had a cargo fire warning on a B777 in the dying days of Kai Tak airport. Cargo fire drills carried out, warning persisted and aircraft evacuated. Cause was a load of live frogs from Bangkok that fogged up the smoke detectors. Just goes to show the frogs can f**k Boeing in more ways than one!
The Reverend
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Correct swish, but I believe Boeing have now got their smoke detector discriminator system in working order which should prevent vapour from setting off the alarm.
