Ice and snow removal?!
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Ice and snow removal?!
Just wanted to know if there are any publications out there regarding airfoil and airframe icing, and the effects of snow and ice on the aircraft (not just a PPL handbook which states that ice / snow is dangerous; end of discussion)?!
Every now and then I fly with captains who are hysterical about even the slightest evidence of rime or ice, and will spend thousands of dollars on (what I would consider) needless de-icing. Then there are those who never seem to de-ice no matter what the flying conditions are like. I'd really like to slam a NASA research paper on the table and say "Aha! Look at this you imbesile" (or something to that effect ;-)).
Help?
Every now and then I fly with captains who are hysterical about even the slightest evidence of rime or ice, and will spend thousands of dollars on (what I would consider) needless de-icing. Then there are those who never seem to de-ice no matter what the flying conditions are like. I'd really like to slam a NASA research paper on the table and say "Aha! Look at this you imbesile" (or something to that effect ;-)).
Help?
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Dear Crossunder, when your crusty old captain insists on a 'clean aircraft' don't be so dismissive. Certainly the modern rules allow 'X' ammount of 'thin rime ice' on certain parts of the airframe, but ask yourself this....if there's an allowable ammount of 'rime' on the top of the fuselage (a non aerodynamic surface....whats the problem) then are you sure the top of the wing (the bit you can't easily see on a walkaround) is not similarily contaminated?
Well...so, what if it is?
Let me tell you a story.
Many moons ago I was a young F/O converting onto a certain turboprop. We had 3 students, a training captain, and a competent F/O on board. We did two sessions of demo general handling with my fellow students that clear winters day. Finally we landed to take a break before my session. The others were all let off the aircraft before we got airborne again.
On climb out to our safe manoeuvering alt we passed through a thin layer of stratos...the first we'd seen all day. We thought nothing of it.
We set the bugs for the approach to stall. This was the third time the exercise had been done so I was familiar wiyth the routine through observation.
We were meant to get the stall warning at a good margin above actual full stall (+10 kts?) and then recover.
At Vs + 25 the aircraft started dropping a wing. I picked it up. Then the other went. The training captain told me to quit messing with the ailerons. Then we went into a full stall! No warning. No buzzer.
We fell into the cloud layer again during the recovery. Lucky it was only a hundred feet thick.
On exiting the cloud we inspected the wing leading edge from our seats. We could see a barely visible coating of rime on the LE. It was only visible because the black boots on the LE showed its presence. They would not remove it when exercised because it was too thin.
But it caused a 15kt increase in stall speed.
I always demand a CLEAN AIRCRAFT and to hell with the books or the expense.
Safety first.
Well...so, what if it is?
Let me tell you a story.
Many moons ago I was a young F/O converting onto a certain turboprop. We had 3 students, a training captain, and a competent F/O on board. We did two sessions of demo general handling with my fellow students that clear winters day. Finally we landed to take a break before my session. The others were all let off the aircraft before we got airborne again.
On climb out to our safe manoeuvering alt we passed through a thin layer of stratos...the first we'd seen all day. We thought nothing of it.
We set the bugs for the approach to stall. This was the third time the exercise had been done so I was familiar wiyth the routine through observation.
We were meant to get the stall warning at a good margin above actual full stall (+10 kts?) and then recover.
At Vs + 25 the aircraft started dropping a wing. I picked it up. Then the other went. The training captain told me to quit messing with the ailerons. Then we went into a full stall! No warning. No buzzer.
We fell into the cloud layer again during the recovery. Lucky it was only a hundred feet thick.
On exiting the cloud we inspected the wing leading edge from our seats. We could see a barely visible coating of rime on the LE. It was only visible because the black boots on the LE showed its presence. They would not remove it when exercised because it was too thin.
But it caused a 15kt increase in stall speed.
I always demand a CLEAN AIRCRAFT and to hell with the books or the expense.
Safety first.
General scientific publications, are debateable and/or not very well understood by folks other than experts.
The importance of ice on airplanes and airfoils is a safety concern and as such is pubished in the flight manuals for the benefit of safe operations. This is the one document that the pilot need worry about understanding and following.
It may be that your concern is warranted if the pilot does not understand the airplane manuals and by such thinks that he is safe when he is not.
A NASA maual is not the book to start throwing in front of a pilot/
The importance of ice on airplanes and airfoils is a safety concern and as such is pubished in the flight manuals for the benefit of safe operations. This is the one document that the pilot need worry about understanding and following.
It may be that your concern is warranted if the pilot does not understand the airplane manuals and by such thinks that he is safe when he is not.
A NASA maual is not the book to start throwing in front of a pilot/
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Ice should only be used in the making of a Martini.
To: Crossunder
The following was taken from a commercial site on the Internet. As far as NASA generating a report the only report I could find on the Internet was generated by NACA back in 1932. Try the Internet under Ice on aircraft.
Ice on an aircraft's wing-surface can have a roughening effect, which, in turn, can change those parts of the aircraft, which generate lift. As a result, the prescribed aerodynamic safety margins, specified for the aircraft with regard to acceleration and lifting performance are either reduced or completely eliminated. In a worst case scenario, icing on the wing can even cause the aircraft to stall. Therefore ice and snow have to be removed from the aircraft surfaces by applying de-icing agents leaving their wings aerodynamically clean for take-off.
But not cool enough to form Ice.
PS: There is an outfit operating out of Mirabel Airport, Quebec that uses compressed air to remove snow and accumulated Ice. It does not get everything off the aircraft but it saves thousands of dollars in Glycol usage.
The following was taken from a commercial site on the Internet. As far as NASA generating a report the only report I could find on the Internet was generated by NACA back in 1932. Try the Internet under Ice on aircraft.
Ice on an aircraft's wing-surface can have a roughening effect, which, in turn, can change those parts of the aircraft, which generate lift. As a result, the prescribed aerodynamic safety margins, specified for the aircraft with regard to acceleration and lifting performance are either reduced or completely eliminated. In a worst case scenario, icing on the wing can even cause the aircraft to stall. Therefore ice and snow have to be removed from the aircraft surfaces by applying de-icing agents leaving their wings aerodynamically clean for take-off.
But not cool enough to form Ice.PS: There is an outfit operating out of Mirabel Airport, Quebec that uses compressed air to remove snow and accumulated Ice. It does not get everything off the aircraft but it saves thousands of dollars in Glycol usage.
Go for Glycol
After spending two hours carefully scraping frost between the rivet lines on a C172 wing, I still had an exciting low level tour of the ravine conveniently situated at the end of the runway until I got to a speed that would give me a climb
After that it's been windshield washer fluid and squeegee until the wings shine.
That said some a/c such as the A310 are certified for take off with frost over the wing tanks, which can happen if you land with cold soaked fuel. Canadian regulations require perfectly clean wings in any case.
After that it's been windshield washer fluid and squeegee until the wings shine.
That said some a/c such as the A310 are certified for take off with frost over the wing tanks, which can happen if you land with cold soaked fuel. Canadian regulations require perfectly clean wings in any case.
That said some a/c such as the A310 are certified for take off with frost over the wing tanks, which can happen if you land with cold soaked fuel. Canadian regulations require perfectly clean wings in any case.
Interesting!, but could you elaborate. Did you really mean "over" in that the ice was on top of the wing, or was the ice on the underside of the wing where it would be the closest to the liquid inside.
Also, what certification permits this? was it the design of the aircraft or the operation of the aircraft?
pb and lmp, when I was looking after Wardair's computer systems, I observed frost over the wing tanks from my SLF seat and later sent a query about that to the CP. His reply was that the A310 was certified for that and from what I observed, the takeoff performance did not seem degraded.
As you have both pointed out, frost can be on the underside as well, but I did not do the walkaround
Upper surface airfoil frost likely has more serious performance implications than lower surface and distance from leading edge would also come into play. I saw maybe 10-20 square feet of frosted wing surface, a miniscule fraction of the A310 wing area.
If you see frost on a wing tank, it may well be on the other side too -- a lesson for all of us.
As you have both pointed out, frost can be on the underside as well, but I did not do the walkaround
Upper surface airfoil frost likely has more serious performance implications than lower surface and distance from leading edge would also come into play. I saw maybe 10-20 square feet of frosted wing surface, a miniscule fraction of the A310 wing area.
If you see frost on a wing tank, it may well be on the other side too -- a lesson for all of us.
Well RBF, you've answer at least to the source.
However, for any others, I would certainly like to know more.
I am aware of the general permission to accept frost due to condensation associated with cold fuel at the bottom of tanks on the undersides of wings.
However I am not aware of such permission extending to the upper sides of wings where a good deal lower overall outside air temperature is needed (fuel liquid temperature is not as effective with substantial air-gaps) and hence a much larger contaminated layer is likely.
Lacking any further comments, I might chalk this up to hear-say.
However, for any others, I would certainly like to know more.
I am aware of the general permission to accept frost due to condensation associated with cold fuel at the bottom of tanks on the undersides of wings.
However I am not aware of such permission extending to the upper sides of wings where a good deal lower overall outside air temperature is needed (fuel liquid temperature is not as effective with substantial air-gaps) and hence a much larger contaminated layer is likely.
Lacking any further comments, I might chalk this up to hear-say.
Moderator
Boeing published some years ago after a research program .. surface irregularities in the region of the LED as small as sandpaper had significant adverse effects on CL .... not good ...
When I eventually track down the paper I will put it on the TL sticky thread.
When I eventually track down the paper I will put it on the TL sticky thread.
lmp, on the ground the area of the upper surface of a fuel tank in contact with fuel will depend on fuel volume and tank geometry.
The upper surface of a wing fuel tank in most wing profiles is normally lower towards the rear. At a threshold fuel volume, the upper tank surface will be in contact with the fuel. As fuel quantity increases the upper surface contact point will move forward.
The upper surface of a wing fuel tank in most wing profiles is normally lower towards the rear. At a threshold fuel volume, the upper tank surface will be in contact with the fuel. As fuel quantity increases the upper surface contact point will move forward.
In aviation there are three types of ice.
Good Ice, Bad Ice and Hazardous Ice.
Good Ice is found in the galley.
If you don’t have a galley refer to your crusty old captain.
Also see AC 120-58 Pilot Guide for Large Aircraft De-Icing
http://www2.faa.gov/index.cfm/677/77...A963F429C5403A
Good Ice, Bad Ice and Hazardous Ice.
Good Ice is found in the galley.
If you don’t have a galley refer to your crusty old captain.
Also see AC 120-58 Pilot Guide for Large Aircraft De-Icing
http://www2.faa.gov/index.cfm/677/77...A963F429C5403A
All this talk of ice makes a 45C day and a QNH of 995 sound like very appealing flying conditions!!!
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maxalt, safetypee & john_tullamarine have said it all.
There is another catch: You might get away a hundred times with a “little” ice, probably not even noticing anything during your flight. But when it comes to situations requiring max performance i.e. an engine failure during takeoff, that trace of ice on your wings (and fuselage) can erode the life-saving bit of climb capability you would otherwise have had.
happy landings
There is another catch: You might get away a hundred times with a “little” ice, probably not even noticing anything during your flight. But when it comes to situations requiring max performance i.e. an engine failure during takeoff, that trace of ice on your wings (and fuselage) can erode the life-saving bit of climb capability you would otherwise have had.
happy landings
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Maxalt & LuZuck:
Point taken ;-) Of course I never take off with loads of wet snow or ice/rime on the wings. What I had in mind was the other day when it was around 14-15 below freezing and the snow was very dry / loose. The wind was about 11-13kt, so the only precipitation sticking to the aircraft was that which hit the heated windshield and melted. If we'd applied a layer of sticky fluid to the airfoil; wouldn't this reduce Clmax more than if we let the snow blow off? (Our SOP requires all V-speeds to be raised by 10kt when de-/anti-icing is performed). If there is any doubt, I always insist on deicing, but in this particular case, both the captain and ground personnel inspected the wings and we decided to go without deicing.
Anyways, I must admit I never really thought traces of rime could f**** up the a/c performance that bad (as Maxalt describes), but from now on, this F/O will start deicing a lot more often.
Merry Xmas airmen!
Point taken ;-) Of course I never take off with loads of wet snow or ice/rime on the wings. What I had in mind was the other day when it was around 14-15 below freezing and the snow was very dry / loose. The wind was about 11-13kt, so the only precipitation sticking to the aircraft was that which hit the heated windshield and melted. If we'd applied a layer of sticky fluid to the airfoil; wouldn't this reduce Clmax more than if we let the snow blow off? (Our SOP requires all V-speeds to be raised by 10kt when de-/anti-icing is performed). If there is any doubt, I always insist on deicing, but in this particular case, both the captain and ground personnel inspected the wings and we decided to go without deicing.
Anyways, I must admit I never really thought traces of rime could f**** up the a/c performance that bad (as Maxalt describes), but from now on, this F/O will start deicing a lot more often.
Merry Xmas airmen!
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ice
Any idea how many pilots (lucky enuf to have made it out alive) have said with a mystifide look on their mugs " funny I have taken off b4 with much more frost that that on the plane !!"
Anyways, I must admit I never really thought traces of rime could f**** up the a/c performance that bad (as Maxalt describes), but from now on, this F/O will start deicing a lot more often.
Depends on what your leading edge looks like. Fixed leading edges, ala DC9-10 vs extended slats, are much more sensitive to airflow separation (sandpaper, bug splat effects} than the more common extendable slats on today's big passenger jets.
As I said earlier, follow your operating manual for the equipment that your flying, for many of the reasons stated in this thread, and forget about the ole wifs tales that you might pick up on forums.
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Blow or soak, that is the question
PS: There is an outfit operating out of Mirabel Airport, Quebec that uses compressed air to remove snow and accumulated Ice. It does not get everything off the aircraft but it saves thousands of dollars in Glycol usage.
