Is Tango 9 an ETOPS route?
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Is Tango 9 an ETOPS route?
Any of you who use the airway T9 between BANBA and STG ever think about the case of engine failure at night on this route?
I was going along it myself the other day and got to thinking about alternates and distances/times in a OEI diversion.
My AOM says I'd have an (average weights) TAS of around 350kts with OEI. Parts of T9 appear to me to be in excess of the non- ETOPS requirement of 1 hour OEI range for twins.
Specifically the area seems marginal from south abeam Nantes until roughly abeam Bordeaux. Thats about 250nm distance!
Am I reading this wrong?
Any comments?
I was going along it myself the other day and got to thinking about alternates and distances/times in a OEI diversion.
My AOM says I'd have an (average weights) TAS of around 350kts with OEI. Parts of T9 appear to me to be in excess of the non- ETOPS requirement of 1 hour OEI range for twins.
Specifically the area seems marginal from south abeam Nantes until roughly abeam Bordeaux. Thats about 250nm distance!
Am I reading this wrong?
Any comments?
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expedite_climb I am sure you're right in that its not a stated requirement. But my point is why not?
By strict definition I think they should be!
Did someone give a blanket dispensation on the one hour rule for these routes?
To put it another way, where do you go in the middle of the night over the western reaches of Biscay on one engine...and get there within one hour?
By strict definition I think they should be!
Did someone give a blanket dispensation on the one hour rule for these routes?
To put it another way, where do you go in the middle of the night over the western reaches of Biscay on one engine...and get there within one hour?
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It dependes on what manner of Airship you are driving, We a wel lknown Charter airline have been using the tangos for a long time with no metion of this possible problem. on the long haul side our etops distance is 1200nm ie 400kts per hour on engine. some technical bod at the manufacturers did research into optimum performance and range on one engine before overheating and damage occurs etc.
hope this helps
hope this helps
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Shannon, Cork, Brest, Nantes, Stantiago, Porto, Lisbon, Porto Santo.
Assuming you are flying a 757 or similar with a 400kt single engine out speed, you would not be ETOPS and therefore require an adequate airfield. There are however "grandfather rights" on certain routes.
An Adequate airfield is one which at the anticipated time of use will be available and equipped with services which include ATC, sufficient lighting communications WX reporting, Noav Aids and Safety cover.
A suitable airfield is an adequate airfield with weatherreports or forcast that are likely to be above the normal AOM at the time of intended operation.
Assuming you are flying a 757 or similar with a 400kt single engine out speed, you would not be ETOPS and therefore require an adequate airfield. There are however "grandfather rights" on certain routes.
An Adequate airfield is one which at the anticipated time of use will be available and equipped with services which include ATC, sufficient lighting communications WX reporting, Noav Aids and Safety cover.
A suitable airfield is an adequate airfield with weatherreports or forcast that are likely to be above the normal AOM at the time of intended operation.
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expedite_climb, all you need to do is wind the range control of your ND out to maximum and look what airports are visible on the display. With mine set to 320NM (max) there was nuthin but blackness when I was in the middle of Tango 9!
I'll admit that I haven't yet got out a compass and ruler to check actual distances (I'm gonna do so) but at first glance it looks like it's a marginal operation to say the least.
Highlander...it sounds like your crowd are 180min ETOPS approved, so it's perfectly legal for you to be there.
We aren't ETOPS on this machine in my company.
Sky9, the 400kts you quote is a good 50 kts above our book value for OEI diversion. Its a Bus.
Interested to hear more of the 'grandfather rights' issue though.
Can you elaborate?
I'll admit that I haven't yet got out a compass and ruler to check actual distances (I'm gonna do so) but at first glance it looks like it's a marginal operation to say the least.
Highlander...it sounds like your crowd are 180min ETOPS approved, so it's perfectly legal for you to be there.
We aren't ETOPS on this machine in my company.
Sky9, the 400kts you quote is a good 50 kts above our book value for OEI diversion. Its a Bus.
Interested to hear more of the 'grandfather rights' issue though.
Can you elaborate?
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MaxAlt,
I'm presuming that you are talking about 320KIAS? This has absolutely nothing to do with your 60 minute diversion time, that time is based on your initial cruise altitude and driftdown and should give a figure closer to 430nms to your diversion airport.
Is this fair????? Probably not as it will take you more than 60 minutes flying time to your diversion airport, but as the airlines plan is to keep you on the shortest route, it is their prerogative to cheat.............
Mutt
I'm presuming that you are talking about 320KIAS? This has absolutely nothing to do with your 60 minute diversion time, that time is based on your initial cruise altitude and driftdown and should give a figure closer to 430nms to your diversion airport.
Is this fair????? Probably not as it will take you more than 60 minutes flying time to your diversion airport, but as the airlines plan is to keep you on the shortest route, it is their prerogative to cheat.............
Mutt
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No mutt, the value I quoted was the published TAS for OEI at LRC.
Just as an example:
A/C Weight 70 Tonnes
FL230 (Max after driftdown)
IAS 235
TAS 332
.548M
Those values are straight out of the FCOM.
On Engine Failure I would expect to set MCT and reduce to Green Dot before drift down.
Green Dot at this weight is 230 IAS. Are you certain theres enough distance advantage gained during the deceleration at initial cruise level to get up to the 400NM range you refer to?
Even if it is so, I reckon its stretching the rules a lot to factor the decel phase in. I mean, how do I calculate that at the planning stage when trying to select a diversion field? Bit dodgy innit?
Just as an example:
A/C Weight 70 Tonnes
FL230 (Max after driftdown)
IAS 235
TAS 332
.548M
Those values are straight out of the FCOM.
On Engine Failure I would expect to set MCT and reduce to Green Dot before drift down.
Green Dot at this weight is 230 IAS. Are you certain theres enough distance advantage gained during the deceleration at initial cruise level to get up to the 400NM range you refer to?
Even if it is so, I reckon its stretching the rules a lot to factor the decel phase in. I mean, how do I calculate that at the planning stage when trying to select a diversion field? Bit dodgy innit?
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maxalt,
Your ETOPS threshold is based on the driftdown strategy chosen by the operator - Airbus offer two or three from memory. Minimum rate of descent is rarely the best for pushing out the threshold - there is some optimum below Vmo that maximises TAS vs height loss and thus maximises distance over the ground for the interval (60 minutes in your case) under consideration.
It isn't cheating per se as the whole business is firstly a desktop planning exercise, the aim of which is to maximise the distance travelled or, conversley, the distance from an adequate aerodrome. That planning is usually ISA nil wind, again if my memory serves me correctly.
Your published OEI TAS is your end state, which you approach somewhat asymptotically from above in both altitude and airspeed.
Your ETOPS threshold is based on the driftdown strategy chosen by the operator - Airbus offer two or three from memory. Minimum rate of descent is rarely the best for pushing out the threshold - there is some optimum below Vmo that maximises TAS vs height loss and thus maximises distance over the ground for the interval (60 minutes in your case) under consideration.
It isn't cheating per se as the whole business is firstly a desktop planning exercise, the aim of which is to maximise the distance travelled or, conversley, the distance from an adequate aerodrome. That planning is usually ISA nil wind, again if my memory serves me correctly.
Your published OEI TAS is your end state, which you approach somewhat asymptotically from above in both altitude and airspeed.
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Fair enough 4dogs I see where you're coming from, but this was never touched on in our training and its not mentioned in any of our own procedures manuals.
I think I need to take it up with them.
I think I need to take it up with them.
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T9, T14 and T16 are all kind of in the same boat.
The rules have to be set somehow, so they came up with this stuff about one hour single engine flying time etc. But it's about as likely as an engine failure between V1 and V2 to happen. There is no reason to think that you can't make an airfield that is two hours away on a single engine if you have lost one. Conversely, the circumstances in which you lost the first one might lead to you losing the second. But somebody somewhere has to set the rules - and this seems as good a compromise between neuroticism and safety as any other.
Read Richard Bach's essays on how safe a flight plan will make you, or a certificate of maintenance, in "The Gift of Wings".
The rules have to be set somehow, so they came up with this stuff about one hour single engine flying time etc. But it's about as likely as an engine failure between V1 and V2 to happen. There is no reason to think that you can't make an airfield that is two hours away on a single engine if you have lost one. Conversely, the circumstances in which you lost the first one might lead to you losing the second. But somebody somewhere has to set the rules - and this seems as good a compromise between neuroticism and safety as any other.
Read Richard Bach's essays on how safe a flight plan will make you, or a certificate of maintenance, in "The Gift of Wings".
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T9 is no real prob as far as era's are concerned.certainly on the 757we work on 400 miles which gives you a lot of France and Spain.T16 is another thing with at one point only the fields on Cape Finesterre as options -STG ,Vigo,La Coruna etc (AVS just makes it).On a dark and dirty night you may ponder on which of these is even open never mind all being affected by the same weather system.Better still to ponder it in the crew room and re-file domestic or T9 if you have worries.It's called airmanship.FWIW on a straw poll among our trainers I raised the "if STG is closed is it ETOPS?"question and got a different answer from each of them! I would therefore refer you to my previous statement re airmanship.
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Homer
The answer is that if Santiago is closed it is no longer "Adequate" and therefore does not count. Do remember though that Shannon counts a long way south, as does Brest. Porto gives you a good abeam "Adequate" field and Porto Santo gives you 400 miles north.
The answer is that if Santiago is closed it is no longer "Adequate" and therefore does not count. Do remember though that Shannon counts a long way south, as does Brest. Porto gives you a good abeam "Adequate" field and Porto Santo gives you 400 miles north.
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I am what you refer to as ' SELF LOADING FREIGHT'.
LHR is London Heathrow. Where what is BANBA
So would you pilot people; tell me how I find the list of locations as used abbreviated.
I don't wanna know if it's a security breach. You wouldn't tell me.
Why is a North / South landing on Lanzarote: interesting.
May happiness walk in your shoes.
LHR is London Heathrow. Where what is BANBA
So would you pilot people; tell me how I find the list of locations as used abbreviated.
I don't wanna know if it's a security breach. You wouldn't tell me.
Why is a North / South landing on Lanzarote: interesting.
May happiness walk in your shoes.
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BANBA is just an enroute waypoint. It is easier to enter such points into a computer by giving it a name rather than the Lat/long. All enroute waypoint names are constructed using 5 letters (which sometimes leads to "interesting" names such as DIKAS).
Landing to the south at Lanzarote is "interesting" because there are hills to the north. It isn't however half as interesting as other airfields such as Funchal.
Landing to the south at Lanzarote is "interesting" because there are hills to the north. It isn't however half as interesting as other airfields such as Funchal.
Turns out that lat 47.59747, lon 13.30832 is 350 nm from both Shannon and Santiago (based on the lat-lons at www.worldaerodata.com). So as long as those two airports stay suitable the Bay of Biscay seems wide open.
