fear of a bird strike at night

[mercher77]

Hello everyone,

I’m about to depart from Réunion at night, and I must admit I’m quite apprehensive (especially after the crash in Korea): the presence of birds around the runways and, above all, the risk that during takeoff, one of them could be ingested into both engines during rotation.

I believe that Réunion Airport isn’t equipped with specific bird radars… and even less infrared cameras—yet considering the tropical wildlife and the bird breeding season, they probably should be. So, how do airports and pilots practically keep birds away, especially at night ?

• Is there any “bird radar” at the airport?
  
• Do you receive information in advance about bird presence (radar, observations, weather)?
  

Regarding the pilots’ role:

• Do you receive a “bird strike” bulletin or alert before departure?
  
• Do you adjust your flight path, altitude, or speed to avoid known risk areas?
  

In short: how do you manage to minimize the risk of a bird strike at night in Réunion? Your feedback would really help me understand and feel reassured 😊

Thanks in advance to the specialists!

[the_stranger]

As a pilot, there might be a warning, but it's rather useless as, for example, at my airport there is a warning 365 days a year of geese. Can't stop flying for 365 days a year.
And even with the warning, there is little I can do. During the day you might see some birds on the runway or in the departure path and delay the takeoff a bit or maybe alter the flight path a teeny amount to try and miss the flock, but that's it and at night, what you can't see, you can't avoid.

Furthermore, I highly doubtt groundbased scare tactics are very useful besides shooting fireworks to get them to relocate 10 meters to the left.

So I'm afraid the news isn't as positive as you were hoping for, but the chance another one of those things happening are rather small. Over the 20 plus years I have, unfortunately, killed quite a few birds and other flying things, but never with the core of an engine, let alone both at the same time.

[PENKO]

How many catastrophic bird strikes have occurred in Reunion the last 100 years? Did any of them, if at all, occur at night? A quick google search does not reveal much. All pilots experience bird strikes multiple times per year. Most of these birdstrikes only damage the bird in question and annoy the engineer who has to mop up the blood and gore. Of course there is a chance that a birdstrike causes serious damage, but I can list 100 other things that are just as (un)likely to occur. Falling from the aircraft steps for example.

[FullWings]

I heard from an engineer (where’s TDR when you need him?) that you are less likely to get bits of birds going down the engine core at high thrust settings, e.g. takeoff, as the remains get flung outwards through the bypass duct. I have had birdstrikes at night and only found out about them when the sun came up and you could see the mess.

Long story short, modern engines are tested with bird carcasses for certification but with the Korean accident it looks like they flew through a large flock which damaged the airframe as well as the engines, which is bad luck. As others have said, you do get warnings but they are often 24/7/365 “bird activity near the airport” which there is not a lot you can do about. Birdstrikes are fairly common, damage, especially severe damage, quite rare.

[tdracer]

Originally Posted by FullWings

I heard from an engineer (where’s TDR when you need him?) that you are less likely to get bits of birds going down the engine core at high thrust settings, e.g. takeoff, as the remains get flung outwards through the bypass duct. I have had birdstrikes at night and only found out about them when the sun came up and you could see the mess.

Long story short, modern engines are tested with bird carcasses for certification but with the Korean accident it looks like they flew through a large flock which damaged the airframe as well as the engines, which is bad luck. As others have said, you do get warnings but they are often 24/7/365 “bird activity near the airport” which there is not a lot you can do about. Birdstrikes are fairly common, damage, especially severe damage, quite rare.

You called
Like most of aviation, engine bird ingestion testing is based on probabilities. The aim is make a catastrophic outcome "extremely unlikely" in FAA parlance (basically a 10-9 event). There is no 100% protection.
Power setting with a bird strike is a bit of a crap shoot - higher power is more apt to 'centrifuge' the bit bits out of the core, so less likely to result in core damage, but the stresses on the fan blades are higher so the odds of fan blade damage are higher. Low power hits on easier on the blades, but more likely to result in stuff going into the core. FWIW, all the bird strike engine testing is done at max takeoff power settings.
Bird strike related crashes are very, very rare, but occasionally the odds catch up with you. Bird strike is one area where 4 engines are statistically safer (harder to take a big flock of big birds into 4 engines than just 2) - but sometimes even that is not enough (30 years ago, there was a military 707 AWACs aircraft that crashed in Alaska after a major birdstrike on takeoff). Not much different day vs. night, since the usefulness of 'see and avoid' is pretty poor.

[mercher77]

Thank you for your feedback. I agree that it’s probably unlikely, but my fear makes me feel like it’s going to happen! So I’m trying to understand what can actually be done if it does.

From what I’ve gathered, once the aircraft is above 800–1,000 meters altitude, it can more or less turn back and consider returning to the runway. Below that, however, it becomes very critical.

Do pilots practice handling a total engine failure from rotation up to 300–400 meters altitude? Apart from attempting a landing as in the Korea crash?

[EXDAC]

Originally Posted by PENKO

All pilots experience bird strikes multiple times per year.

I have never experienced a bird strike in the 45 years I have been flying. I have had the pleasure of sharing thermals with many.

[rudestuff]

Originally Posted by mercher77

...the risk that during takeoff, one of them could be ingested into both engines during rotation.

I can assure you that it is impossible for one bird to be ingested in both engines for a couple of reasons. After going through the first engine, how much of the bird would realistically remain? How would it get back to the front of the airplane to be hit a second time? Minus wings, it would immediately start to fall. At altitude a descending 360° turn would be required (not SOP) to reintercept the falling bird a second time on the way down and some considerable bad luck would be needed to hit again with the other engine, but hitting the same bird twice on rotation? I honestly don't think it's very likely.

What you really should worry about is two birds - with one going into each engine.

[PENKO]

Originally Posted by mercher77

Thank you for your feedback. I agree that it’s probably unlikely, but my fear makes me feel like it’s going to happen! So I’m trying to understand what can actually be done if it does.

From what I’ve gathered, once the aircraft is above 800–1,000 meters altitude, it can more or less turn back and consider returning to the runway. Below that, however, it becomes very critical.

Do pilots practice handling a total engine failure from rotation up to 300–400 meters altitude? Apart from attempting a landing as in the Korea crash?

Yes, there are procedures dealing with dual engine failures at low altitude, and yes, they are practiced. ‘Fun’ fact: the procedure for dual engine failure in the cruise is very longwinded and thorough, first trying to restart the engines using the natural airflow, failing that, slowing down to glide for as long as possible whilst now using the APU to try to restart the engines, also trying every trick in the book to get an engine restarted, then on and on about glide ratios, cabin preparations, etc. On the other hand, the procedure for dual engine failure close to the ground (forced landing checklist) is necessarily very, very short.

The dual engine failure in the cruise checklist still more or less assumes that you are aiming to land at an airport if you can’t get the engines going again. The forced landing checklist leaves that option open. I.e. the closer to the ground you are the more it becomes a judgement call: return to the airport or find a flat spot of land or water to make a forced landing. There are no hard and fast rules in this regard as there may be many variables. Both Sully’s miracle on the Hudson and the Jeju accident are a good example.


*I try to be as type/airline unspecific in the answer above, just to give you a general idea

[jolihokistix]

Most birds sleep at night.

How many birds would risk flying around in the dark, except perhaps for owls, and bats of course?

[the_stranger]

Originally Posted by jolihokistix

Most birds sleep at night.

How many birds would risk flying around in the dark, except perhaps for owls, and bats of course?

In Reunion quite a few, I'm afraid.... And it only takes two (besides a ##### ton of bad luck).

[flypaddy]

As others have said, the probability of a dual engine failure is extremely unlikely. Extremely. When it happens it’s so unusual that it’s big news and skews our perception of the likelihood.

I notice you refer to the fear of the event though. Does this preoccupy your mind when taking off? Could this be a distraction which causes you to make mistakes? If so I would recommend speaking to a psychologist who can help you to understand why this preoccupies you and how to let it go. There’s no shame in it and it could make a big difference.

[PENKO]

Originally Posted by jolihokistix

Most birds sleep at night.

How many birds would risk flying around in the dark, except perhaps for owls, and bats of course?

Actually, whilst there is more bird activity during the day, a fair number of bird strikes happen at night. In my experience these tend to happen at higher altitudes (on initial approach) compared to the daytime hits which tend to happen around airfields. I’m sure some bird experts can say more about the how and the why.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Are you asking as a pilot? Or as a passenger?

[Meikleour]

I can second that. Climbing out of BAH in a B747 passing 15,000ft doing 300kts+ IAS took a birdstrike to the fuselage just above the left hand cockpit window. Sounded like someone had hit the aircraft with a sledgehammer. Dent in the fuselage skin found after landing.

[PENKO]

Likewise, we hit a bird on a pitch dark night over Germany, descending through 14000 feet. Yet sometimes you fly through a whole swarm of birds in broad daylight on short final without hitting one. Sometimes you know you've hit a bird, you've seen it, you've heard it, but can find no evidence whatsoever of any impact or damage after landing, leading to some awkward looks from the engineers you've called out to attend to the aircraft ('And you say you saw the bird exactly where, captain?' 'Oh you heard it as well...right...').

[Hot 'n' High]

Originally Posted by PENKO

Actually, whilst there is more bird activity during the day, a fair number of bird strikes happen at night. In my experience these tend to happen at higher altitudes (on initial approach) compared to the daytime hits which tend to happen around airfields. I’m sure some bird experts can say more about the how and the why.

I suspect that it's a case of, at night, it's either migrating birds or birds returning from some distance away to a roost site and so they are conducting a relatively high-level transit. Day-time, most birds are feeding and so you maybe catch them relocating a few 100m from one area to another looking for food ........... or as they return to the original food source after the bird-scarer wagon drives off!

My "bird expertise" in saying all this? Mainly in blondes ...... slightly less in brunettes!

[mercher77]

I am an anxious passenger!

[compressor stall]

You should be reassured just how many birds can go through your engines and they still keep running.
Sure there are two high profile events that have ended catastrophically, but that is vanishingly rare statistically.

[rudestuff]

Originally Posted by mercher77

I’m about to depart from Réunion at night

So I'm guessing (from the fact that you just posted) you made it in one piece?