Guarding flight control in cruise
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From: Pprune server
Guarding flight control in cruise
Hi, just flew with an instructor that insisted that it is a good airmanship to keep the feet resting lightly in the rudder pedals in cruise even when the autopilot is on, just in case he said. 
While the company policy only requires to do so in critical phase of flight (which I'm doing), a few other pilots I met actually supported his idea, i.e.: feet on rudder throughout the flight.
What do you think about this topic? does your operator have any policy on this? any reference on this topic from any regulators/manufacturers? for context we are flying Airbus jet and honestly I think its a bad idea to touch the rudder pedal at high altitude in any jet.
While the company policy only requires to do so in critical phase of flight (which I'm doing), a few other pilots I met actually supported his idea, i.e.: feet on rudder throughout the flight.
What do you think about this topic? does your operator have any policy on this? any reference on this topic from any regulators/manufacturers? for context we are flying Airbus jet and honestly I think its a bad idea to touch the rudder pedal at high altitude in any jet.
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Blue sky
Big question for the instructor: why? That is a cessna idea brought unto a high performance jet which could become dangerous. It is good airmanship on a cessna, it is not good airmanship on a high performance jet. You can invert the jet quickly with the rudder when overcompensating.
The only reason would be a possible engine failure, but with autopilot on there is time to recover and there is rudder trim. So no, feet of the pedals. Upset recovery does not call for rudder use (at least on a boeing it doesn’t). Stall recovery does not call for rudder use.
The only reason would be a possible engine failure, but with autopilot on there is time to recover and there is rudder trim. So no, feet of the pedals. Upset recovery does not call for rudder use (at least on a boeing it doesn’t). Stall recovery does not call for rudder use.
Joined: Dec 2023
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From: UK
Bad idea to do it in cruise.
Sometimes people apply some pressure to the rudder pedals without even realising. Heavy foot syndrome.
Sounds like this instructor pilot is a bit scared of his own abilities.
Sometimes people apply some pressure to the rudder pedals without even realising. Heavy foot syndrome.
Sounds like this instructor pilot is a bit scared of his own abilities.
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From: on the ground
Not a pilot, but the first thing I thought of reading this was Aeroflot 593 in 1994, where the captain's 15yo son, who was in the left seat, managed to unknowingly partially disengage the autopilot with force applied to the control column.
If a force at some level applied to the rudder pedals is capable of either influencing the autopilot operation or directly influencing the aircraft's operation, it surely then becomes a tradeoff between the reliability of the autopilot combined with the likelihood of actually improving mitigation of any such failure versus the likelihood of inducing a problem with an unintended and possibly undetected input.
This makes sense to me.
If a force at some level applied to the rudder pedals is capable of either influencing the autopilot operation or directly influencing the aircraft's operation, it surely then becomes a tradeoff between the reliability of the autopilot combined with the likelihood of actually improving mitigation of any such failure versus the likelihood of inducing a problem with an unintended and possibly undetected input.
Big question for the instructor: why? That is a cessna idea brought unto a high performance jet which could become dangerous. It is good airmanship on a cessna, it is not good airmanship on a high performance jet. You can invert the jet quickly with the rudder when overcompensating.
The only reason would be a possible engine failure, but with autopilot on there is time to recover and there is rudder trim. So no, feet of the pedals. Upset recovery does not call for rudder use (at least on a boeing it doesn’t). Stall recovery does not call for rudder use.
The only reason would be a possible engine failure, but with autopilot on there is time to recover and there is rudder trim. So no, feet of the pedals. Upset recovery does not call for rudder use (at least on a boeing it doesn’t). Stall recovery does not call for rudder use.
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From: https://youtube.com/watch?v=P8pihdksUHk&si=t_GX3ubmBvZ2CDgB
Good idea, with the provision, if you intend to take a "nap", best slide the seat back, so your feet are not near the rudder pedals. Not before informing the crew of uour intentions.
The reason being, if one has muscle spasims, or sleep walks while unconscious, not good to be kicking the rudder pedals.
However, no input is probably better than wrong input. Remember the accident after t/o from JFK, just after 911.
The reason being, if one has muscle spasims, or sleep walks while unconscious, not good to be kicking the rudder pedals.
However, no input is probably better than wrong input. Remember the accident after t/o from JFK, just after 911.
Last edited by RichardJones; 1st March 2025 at 15:47.
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From: on the ground
Joined: Apr 2011
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From: Not in Honduras
Next time in cruise, take a look at the RTLU on the F/CTL SD page, just to see how much rudder authority you would actually have.
I would even go as far as to say, an engine failure at cruise levels (why else would you need rudder input?) accompanied by the autopilot dropping out at the same time would result in minimal yawing - the FAC's yaw damper will take care of most of the resulting side slip.
I would even go as far as to say, an engine failure at cruise levels (why else would you need rudder input?) accompanied by the autopilot dropping out at the same time would result in minimal yawing - the FAC's yaw damper will take care of most of the resulting side slip.
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Western Europe
Hi, just flew with an instructor that insisted that it is a good airmanship to keep the feet resting lightly in the rudder pedals in cruise even when the autopilot is on, just in case he said.
While the company policy only requires to do so in critical phase of flight (which I'm doing), a few other pilots I met actually supported his idea, i.e.: feet on rudder throughout the flight.
What do you think about this topic? does your operator have any policy on this? any reference on this topic from any regulators/manufacturers? for context we are flying Airbus jet and honestly I think its a bad idea to touch the rudder pedal at high altitude in any jet.
While the company policy only requires to do so in critical phase of flight (which I'm doing), a few other pilots I met actually supported his idea, i.e.: feet on rudder throughout the flight.
What do you think about this topic? does your operator have any policy on this? any reference on this topic from any regulators/manufacturers? for context we are flying Airbus jet and honestly I think its a bad idea to touch the rudder pedal at high altitude in any jet.
There is always some idiot who has to reinvent the wheel. If this persists contact fleet.
Joined: Sep 2018
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Seattle
Hi, just flew with an instructor that insisted that it is a good airmanship to keep the feet resting lightly in the rudder pedals in cruise even when the autopilot is on, just in case he said.
While the company policy only requires to do so in critical phase of flight (which I'm doing), a few other pilots I met actually supported his idea, i.e.: feet on rudder throughout the flight.
What do you think about this topic? does your operator have any policy on this? any reference on this topic from any regulators/manufacturers? for context we are flying Airbus jet and honestly I think its a bad idea to touch the rudder pedal at high altitude in any jet.
While the company policy only requires to do so in critical phase of flight (which I'm doing), a few other pilots I met actually supported his idea, i.e.: feet on rudder throughout the flight.
What do you think about this topic? does your operator have any policy on this? any reference on this topic from any regulators/manufacturers? for context we are flying Airbus jet and honestly I think its a bad idea to touch the rudder pedal at high altitude in any jet.
Joined: Mar 2012
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From: Having a margarita on the beach
Hi, just flew with an instructor that insisted that it is a good airmanship to keep the feet resting lightly in the rudder pedals in cruise even when the autopilot is on, just in case he said.
While the company policy only requires to do so in critical phase of flight (which I'm doing), a few other pilots I met actually supported his idea, i.e.: feet on rudder throughout the flight.
What do you think about this topic? does your operator have any policy on this? any reference on this topic from any regulators/manufacturers? for context we are flying Airbus jet and honestly I think its a bad idea to touch the rudder pedal at high altitude in any jet.
While the company policy only requires to do so in critical phase of flight (which I'm doing), a few other pilots I met actually supported his idea, i.e.: feet on rudder throughout the flight.
What do you think about this topic? does your operator have any policy on this? any reference on this topic from any regulators/manufacturers? for context we are flying Airbus jet and honestly I think its a bad idea to touch the rudder pedal at high altitude in any jet.
On a serious note, as others have said, BS.
Joined: Sep 2022
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From: Perpetually circling OCK for some reason
I would not be comfortable with my colleague’s feet being on the pedals during the cruise. At high altitude the reality is that OEI asymmetry is naturally limited due to the reduced thrust from the engines, but the effect of the rudder is (if not limited) potentially amplified due to the high TAS and low damping due low CAS? No thanks.
I have experienced OEI at cruise altitude
for what that is worth - on the 737 the AP could deal with it quite happily (at FL300+) even without any rudder input from PF. Not the prettiest sure, but it wasn’t going to instantly kill you.
Things may have changed now, but when on check/demo flights on the 737 we checked engine accel/decel at cruise altitude the SOP was not to apply any rudder and allow the AP to adjust - AP on, AT off. Never done anything like that in the airbus but of course even with AP off normal law comes to the rescue of my mediocre abilities.
Again, just my own experience - and worth exactly what you paid for it.
I have experienced OEI at cruise altitude
for what that is worth - on the 737 the AP could deal with it quite happily (at FL300+) even without any rudder input from PF. Not the prettiest sure, but it wasn’t going to instantly kill you.
Things may have changed now, but when on check/demo flights on the 737 we checked engine accel/decel at cruise altitude the SOP was not to apply any rudder and allow the AP to adjust - AP on, AT off. Never done anything like that in the airbus but of course even with AP off normal law comes to the rescue of my mediocre abilities.
Again, just my own experience - and worth exactly what you paid for it.
Last edited by Speed_Trim_Fail; 2nd March 2025 at 10:24.
Joined: Jun 2000
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From: Australia
I had this happen to me years ago in a 737 with a German airline. While I was landing the co-pilot would rest his hands on the control wheel and feet on rudder pedals. It was both distracting and annoying and totally unnecessary.
Joined: Sep 2018
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From: Seattle
I categorise PMs who rest their hands/feet on the controls such that PF can feel their input in the same category as people who breathe through their mouth - they aren’t even aware of what they are doing & they very much aren’t my kind of person.
“You've got to remember that these are just simple pilots. These are people of the sky. The common crew of the air. You know... morons.”
“You've got to remember that these are just simple pilots. These are people of the sky. The common crew of the air. You know... morons.”
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Tring, UK
I’ve never flown with anyone who thought that being on the controls with the AP engaged in the cruise was a good idea in a jet. Especially the rudder. I can’t think of a case where it would be necessary to quickly apply rudder and even if there was, the pedals are right in front of you?
