Thrust lever control and rejected takeoff (FO as PF)

[Smooth Airperator]

A320 skipper. Like most, I work at a company where the captain has the thrust levers for the takeoff roll and is responsible for any rejected takeoff. Recently, during a line check, I received a remark saying I "shouldn't hover my hands above the FO's after he has set thrust and should allow him a reasonable amount of time to relinquish them". I responded that I don't normally do this but the FO held the thrust levers for far too long after setting them. FO remarked that he "didn't forget but was just waiting for a good time to give them back" (whatever that means).

When I was in the right seat, I would set the thrust levers and immediately release them, knowing that it's crucial for the captain to have full and immediate control in the event of a rejected takeoff. Based on simulator experiences, the importance of the captain being able to quickly and decisively cut the thrust, especially during a low-speed/high-power reject with x-wind or contamination appears to me as paramount (we practice 30 KTS cross-wind rejects from a narrow runway in the sim a lot).

I felt I was poorly understood by the checker. Anyway, not to dwell on my experience so much, but what is the consensus out there, are there folks who feel that their colleagues are taking a second or two longer than they ought to be? Does your company publish any guidance on this matter?

[sonicbum]

Originally Posted by Smooth Airperator

A320 skipper. Like most, I work at a company where the captain has the thrust levers for the takeoff roll and is responsible for any rejected takeoff. Recently, during a line check, I received a remark saying I "shouldn't hover my hands above the FO's after he has set thrust and should allow him a reasonable amount of time to relinquish them". I responded that I don't normally do this but the FO held the thrust levers for far too long after setting them. FO remarked that he "didn't forget but was just waiting for a good time to give them back" (whatever that means).

When I was in the right seat, I would set the thrust levers and immediately release them, knowing that it's crucial for the captain to have full and immediate control in the event of a rejected takeoff. Based on simulator experiences, the importance of the captain being able to quickly and decisively cut the thrust, especially during a low-speed/high-power reject with x-wind or contamination appears to me as paramount (we practice 30 KTS cross-wind rejects from a narrow runway in the sim a lot).

I felt I was poorly understood by the checker. Anyway, not to dwell on my experience so much, but what is the consensus out there, are there folks who feel that their colleagues are taking a second or two longer than they ought to be? Does your company publish any guidance on this matter?

Hi,

there are no reasons for the FO to keep the hand on the thrust levers once the detent is hit. Exactly as you said, once the detent clicks in, thrust levers are yours for the reasons you have well described above.

If I was the checker I would have asked the FO the meaning of “waiting for the good time” as there could well be knowledge items to review on how the system works.

[pineteam]

Same as you as FO before I immediately removed my hand after setting the levers to Flex detent.. Common sense. I totally agree with you.
On the same subject one thing that annoys me is after V1, VR, a few guys will set their hand literally 1 or 2 seconds after I remove mine! The main gears are still on the ground.. Lol. I don’t see the point and it’s dangerous IMHO. I reckon hands on the levers should not be before at least 400 feet. I personally wait approaching thrust reduction altitude.

[172_driver]

FO here. Isn't there a call "thrust set" by the PM or something similar? "A good time" to hand over the thrust levers. Haven't had any problems with that. Not sure if it's officially taught or just culture. FOs at our lot are aware/trained (occasionally) of their responsibility and actions in case of low speed rejects.

[Speed_Trim_Fail]

..the importance of the captain being able to quickly and decisively cut the thrust, especially during a low-speed/high-power reject with x-wind or contamination appears to me as paramount (we practice 30 KTS cross-wind rejects from a narrow runway in the sim a lot).

Precisely why I like working at an operator where the FO handles their own thrust levers - no ambiguity at all with hands hovering over levers etc, because as you say a low speed RTO with high thrust settings/asymmetry is a scenario that requires decisive action.

FWIW when I was operating with different SOPs where the FO did not handle the levers for take off, the brief was always that hands were to be removed promptly as if the levers were slammed back hard then fingers would get trapped!

[pineteam]

This call out is important and always done by the PM to ensure the required thrust has been reached. But this is not a trigger to remove the hand. the trigger is the actual detent; FCOM states: « Once the thrust levers are set to FLX or Toga detent, the captain maintains the hand on the thrust levers until aircraft reaches V1 ».

[Rozy1]

Originally Posted by pineteam

Same as you as FO before I immediately removed my hand after setting the levers to Flex detent.. Common sense. I totally agree with you.
On the same subject one thing that annoys me is after V1, VR, a few guys will set their hand literally 1 or 2 seconds after I remove mine! The main gears are still on the ground.. Lol. I don’t see the point and it’s dangerous IMHO. I reckon hands on the levers should not be before at least 400 feet. I personally wait approaching thrust reduction altitude.

Are you a Captain or right seater now? I assume right seat if the other pilot is taking liberties you don’t approve of. I also assume you mean “set their hand” on the thrust levers?

Either way, on the ground hands should be off the thrust levers after V1. There is a very good reason for this.

If your company condones this and doesn’t have procedures to prevent it, is there a way to address that?

[LOWI]

FO is PF. Just as they advance the thrust levers for takeoff, ATC calls "stop", the FO closes the thrust lever and at that point the Capt takes over. Does this make sense or should the FO remove their hand and allow the Capt to close the thrust levers and initiate the RTO?

[Rozy1]

Originally Posted by Smooth Airperator

A320 skipper. Like most, I work at a company where the captain has the thrust levers for the takeoff roll and is responsible for any rejected takeoff. Recently, during a line check, I received a remark saying I "shouldn't hover my hands above the FO's after he has set thrust and should allow him a reasonable amount of time to relinquish them". I responded that I don't normally do this but the FO held the thrust levers for far too long after setting them. FO remarked that he "didn't forget but was just waiting for a good time to give them back" (whatever that means).

When I was in the right seat, I would set the thrust levers and immediately release them, knowing that it's crucial for the captain to have full and immediate control in the event of a rejected takeoff. Based on simulator experiences, the importance of the captain being able to quickly and decisively cut the thrust, especially during a low-speed/high-power reject with x-wind or contamination appears to me as paramount (we practice 30 KTS cross-wind rejects from a narrow runway in the sim a lot).

I felt I was poorly understood by the checker. Anyway, not to dwell on my experience so much, but what is the consensus out there, are there folks who feel that their colleagues are taking a second or two longer than they ought to be? Does your company publish any guidance on this matter?

You’re the skipper. Hover all you want, you’re in command.

I don’t see the problem except that the checker doesn’t understand risk management.

[sonicbum]

Originally Posted by LOWI

FO is PF. Just as they advance the thrust levers for takeoff, ATC calls "stop", the FO closes the thrust lever and at that point the Capt takes over. Does this make sense or should the FO remove their hand and allow the Capt to close the thrust levers and initiate the RTO?

The RTO decision and execution is the Captain’s responsibility in a normal crew complement (unless incapacitated).
Hence In the above scenario the Captain (CM1) must initiate the maneuver. With that being said, always considering the above scenario, it is very likely and understandable that the FO (CM2) will instinctively bring the thrust levers to idle, especially if you see the nose of another airplane showing up half down the runway…

[Rozy1]

Originally Posted by sonicbum

The RTO decision and execution is the Captain’s responsibility in a normal crew complement (unless incapacitated).
Hence In the above scenario the Captain (CM1) must initiate the maneuver. With that being said, always considering the above scenario, it is very likely and understandable that the FO (CM2) will instinctively bring the thrust levers to idle, especially if you see the nose of another airplane showing up half down the runway…

In the above scenario, it’s hardly an RTO. The engines will not have even spooled up so if the FOs hand is on the thrust levers, he/she brings them back.

If transfer of control has occurred (different scenario) and the Captain’s hands are on the thrust levers, he/she closes them. Not terribly complicated to understand. Transfer of control is the important concept to have understood.

[pineteam]

Originally Posted by Rozy1

Are you a Captain or right seater now? I assume right seat if the other pilot is taking liberties you don’t approve of. I also assume you mean “set their hand” on the thrust levers?

Either way, on the ground hands should be off the thrust levers after V1. There is a very good reason for this.

If your company condones this and doesn’t have procedures to prevent it, is there a way to address that?

No I’m on the left since 2017 but I’m still learning. It’s only 1 or 2 guys super senior I have seen putting their hand immediately after lift off. I don’t agree with it of course but it’s ok.. Unless it’s a line check I can let it go. My outfit is pretty chill tho and has nothing clearly written about this. We follow the FCOM/FCTM.

[richpea]

I'm right seat on the 737 so its perhaps a bit different to the A320 seeing as we don't have a detent to go to, but for me its when the CPT as PM says take-off thrust set is when he is going to take control of the lever, that's in our FCOM: "After takeoff thrust is set the Captain's hand must be on the thrust levers until V1".

[Smooth Airperator]

Originally Posted by richpea

I'm right seat on the 737 so its perhaps a bit different to the A320 seeing as we don't have a detent to go to, but for me its when the CPT as PM says take-off thrust set is when he is going to take control of the lever, that's in our FCOM: "After takeoff thrust is set the Captain's hand must be on the thrust levers until V1".

I'm not sure about that. For Airbus aircraft, the phrase "Thrust set" is meant to be called out anytime before reaching 80 knots, as specified in the FCOM. My company guidelines specify the call between 60-80 knots. This means the callout could potentially be made well after takeoff thrust is actually set. In your case, doing what you do on the Boeing translated into Airbus speak would mean that the FO would be justified keeping their hands on the thrust levers for up to 10 seconds after moving the levers.

The point I'm making here is that it's the low speed/high power regime that is the most difficult to recover from. You're not giving the Captain enough time to be prepared for that if you're not relinquishing control of the levers sooner than the "Thrust set" call out.

[Rozy1]

Originally Posted by pineteam

No I’m on the left since 2017 but I’m still learning. It’s only 1 or 2 guys super senior I have seen putting their hand immediately after lift off. I don’t agree with it of course but it’s ok.. Unless it’s a line check I can let it go. My outfit is pretty chill tho and has nothing clearly written about this. We follow the FCOM/FCTM.

I would ask them why they are doing that. One acceptable reason would be to be ready to add power in the event of an engine failure, but in this case, controlling the aircraft flight path would be the PFs concern, then if more power is needed, direct the PM to to that.

Do you have autothrottles?

Smooth operator; 737 is different. No way would the thrust not be set by 50 kts at the most.

[safetypee]

"… 30 KTS cross-wind rejects from a narrow runway …"

hmm, perhaps more an issue as to whom keeps the aircraft on the runway, and in what time scale between calls and action to retard the thrust.

[BraceBrace]

Your hand is above the throttles? Shouldn't they be below?

737 SOP for the record...

If the call "set TO thrust" is made by the FO, my hand actually sits at the back of the throttles looking at the acceleration of the engines, hands ready to push slowly if needed (altough 9 out of 10 times acceleration is normal). I'm aware this is Boeing specific. However...

Once I make the call "thrust set", my right hand automatically moves up and if the FO doesn't remove his hands my hand will push his palm up and grab the throttles. The feeling of touch will make them remove instantly if they are taking too much time. The call "thrust set" is my call stating I'm taking over controls of the throttles. They should act according to it. Throttle control is an important "priority" at that stage of the takeoff and it should take some mental attention at that point so they should be "conscious" and not surprised my hand appears under theirs. They have time to remove if they don't like it, it's not a lightning speed action. But my hand needs to get on to the throttles.


BTW, in case of pilot incapacitation I was always trained to do this exact procedure as is the quickes and safest action, you only do it a lot faster and with more force. It is important to "throw off" the hands from the throttles, as people will use force and "grab with force" whatever they are holding to in case of overload or startle. This has happened already (in the simulator) to me, even with a very experienced pilot. And believe me, the "throw off" is an excellent wake up call to them to get them out of startle. I don't see how you can easily remove their hand when you come from above.

[richpea]

Originally Posted by Smooth Airperator

I'm not sure about that. For Airbus aircraft, the phrase "Thrust set" is meant to be called out anytime before reaching 80 knots, as specified in the FCOM. My company guidelines specify the call between 60-80 knots. This means the callout could potentially be made well after takeoff thrust is actually set. In your case, doing what you do on the Boeing translated into Airbus speak would mean that the FO would be justified keeping their hands on the thrust levers for up to 10 seconds after moving the levers.

The point I'm making here is that it's the low speed/high power regime that is the most difficult to recover from. You're not giving the Captain enough time to be prepared for that if you're not relinquishing control of the levers sooner than the "Thrust set" call out.

Well, that's verbatim from our FCOM... the other relevant bit of information is that it also states that the CPT should be guarding the thrust levers from the moment TOGA is pushed. Generally with most of the CPTs I fly with, they just give you a light tap on the back of the hand when they want the levers, which is right after they say thrust set.

As mentioned above, in a 737 TOGA thrust will be achieved well before 80 kts. From the top of my head I'd say the longest you're holding onto the thrust levers is maybe 5 seconds, and even that would be an age.

To me it would seem a bit strange to do it the Airbus way... "any time before 80kts"? Why not call it as soon as its set? Is there a specific feature of how the engine spools up that makes sense to do it that way? Or is it more that if take-off thrust has not been set by 80kts you should reject the takeoff?

[richpea]

Originally Posted by BraceBrace

Once I make the call "thrust set" my right hand automatically moves up and if the FO doesn't remove his hands my hand will push his palm up and grab the throttles. The feeling of touch will make them remove instantly if they are taking too much time. The call "thrust set" is my call stating I'm taking over controls of the throttles. They should act according to it.

As a point of interest, as a CPT are you expecting the F/O to let go of the T/L before you're making the move to take it over? I've always tended to operate on the basis of once I feel the CPT taking them after he's said "Thrust set" I'll let go, other wise I'm letting go if he says "STOP"... if none of those things happen I need to reject the T/O before 80kts so it makes sense to wait until I can feel he's actually taking control.

[sonicbum]

Originally Posted by Rozy1

In the above scenario, it’s hardly an RTO. The engines will not have even spooled up so if the FOs hand is on the thrust levers, he/she brings them back.

If transfer of control has occurred (different scenario) and the Captain’s hands are on the thrust levers, he/she closes them. Not terribly complicated to understand. Transfer of control is the important concept to have understood.

Once the takeoff clearance had been received, the “takeoff” call has been made and the thrust levers are advanced, then it becomes a RTO and hence has to follow the standard procedures.
If ATC orders to stop, even with engines still spooling up, the Captain will call “stop” and take controls. As said earlier on, it is quite likely and normal that at this stage the FO will reduce instinctively the thrust levers.
As You very respectfully like to say “not terribly complicated to understand”.