Angle of attack and pitch attitude
Join Date: Nov 2006
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To better make the point, consider a turn on still air, or with tail or head wind. With respects to the air mass it makes no difference, the radius function of IAS stays the same. However with respects to the ground you must consider TAS and therefore with headwind the radius will be smaller and tailwind it will be greater.
I don’t recall AF447 being unrecoverable per se. They just left it too late - lots of reasons - and needed more than 10,000’ to recover.
However, if I dropped the object from a hot air balloon that was floating in a completely uniform aimass, the situation would be quite different. Introduce any wind shear or wind gradient and the object is again influenced by wind as it falls.
Shall we drop our dinner plate from a hot air balloon or drop it while standing on the ground?
Last edited by EXDAC; 18th Apr 2024 at 22:49.
I'm still struggling with the concept that a dinner plate might have a tailwind.
They tried this on the International Space Station - results were inconclusive.
Actually it's quite like a helicopter rotor disc, that gains more lift with wind coming from any direction.
"a symmetrical airfoil, like a plate"
What kind of plates are you using for dinner?
"Actually it's quite like a helicopter rotor disc,"
Ready for take-off.
What kind of plates are you using for dinner?
"Actually it's quite like a helicopter rotor disc,"
Ready for take-off.
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I disagree. Suppose I am standing on the ground and face into a 30 kt wind. Before I release the object it is experiencing the full force of the 30 kt wind. The moment I release the object the wind will cause it to accelerate horizontally and gravity will cause it to accelerate vertically. Only if the object has sufficient time to be accelerated horizontally to the wind speed will the wind not influence behavior of the object with respect to the airmass.
However, if I dropped the object from a hot air balloon that was floating in a completely uniform aimass, the situation would be quite different. Introduce any wind shear or wind gradient and the object is again influenced by wind as it falls.
Shall we drop our dinner plate from a hot air balloon or drop it while standing on the ground?
However, if I dropped the object from a hot air balloon that was floating in a completely uniform aimass, the situation would be quite different. Introduce any wind shear or wind gradient and the object is again influenced by wind as it falls.
Shall we drop our dinner plate from a hot air balloon or drop it while standing on the ground?
Sorry, boys - to impress me in 2024, you'll have to come up with something better than 1932 (ffs) engineering language. 
Let's try: https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-...-of-incidence/
"The angle of incidence is the angle between the longitudinal axis of the aircraft (draw a line from the spinner to the tail) and the chord line of the wing (draw a line from the leading edge to the trailing edge). This is not the same as your angle of attack. Your angle of attack is the angle between your chord line and the relative wind."
Angle of Incidence - built into the aircraft (albeit perhaps with a variable mount - F-8 Crusader, others)
Angle of Attack - a value that varies during flight, depending on the relative wind at the leading edge of the airfoil.
Let's try: https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-...-of-incidence/
"The angle of incidence is the angle between the longitudinal axis of the aircraft (draw a line from the spinner to the tail) and the chord line of the wing (draw a line from the leading edge to the trailing edge). This is not the same as your angle of attack. Your angle of attack is the angle between your chord line and the relative wind."
Angle of Incidence - built into the aircraft (albeit perhaps with a variable mount - F-8 Crusader, others)
Angle of Attack - a value that varies during flight, depending on the relative wind at the leading edge of the airfoil.
This interesting ( for test pilots ,examiners and boffins ) thread is giving me a headache !
(the difference between AOA and pitch attitude should only be a problem for VTOL aircraft? able to safely fly at very low airspeeds ?)
The official report on the disaster was started after black box recorders were found following a two-year search. It found that the aircraft crashed due to several factors, including icing over external sensors called pitot tubes and pilot error. All the crew died in the disaster.
to KISS ( keep it simple stupid ) basically the crew screwed up bigtime.
when the pilots iced up the ASIs said that the speed was increasing ,a lot ,so they raised the nose ,a lot ,and stalled the aircraft and then were unable to recover.
when I was instructing in the sim if you wanted to be be really nasty you fed in a simple pitot problem at night /IMC when the crew were absorbed in another problem - this very often resulted in the aircraft getting into a potentially dangerous ‘bad angle of attack ‘situation.
it is worth reminding that the simple remedy for an unexpected high ( or low ) airspeed is to select a usual attitude and power setting , sit on hands and then review the situation in slow time.
sorry for the dim print caused by cut and paste??
(the difference between AOA and pitch attitude should only be a problem for VTOL aircraft? able to safely fly at very low airspeeds ?)
The official report on the disaster was started after black box recorders were found following a two-year search. It found that the aircraft crashed due to several factors, including icing over external sensors called pitot tubes and pilot error. All the crew died in the disaster.
to KISS ( keep it simple stupid ) basically the crew screwed up bigtime.
when the pilots iced up the ASIs said that the speed was increasing ,a lot ,so they raised the nose ,a lot ,and stalled the aircraft and then were unable to recover.
when I was instructing in the sim if you wanted to be be really nasty you fed in a simple pitot problem at night /IMC when the crew were absorbed in another problem - this very often resulted in the aircraft getting into a potentially dangerous ‘bad angle of attack ‘situation.
it is worth reminding that the simple remedy for an unexpected high ( or low ) airspeed is to select a usual attitude and power setting , sit on hands and then review the situation in slow time.
sorry for the dim print caused by cut and paste??
Last edited by mahogany bob; 19th Apr 2024 at 08:23.
"a symmetrical airfoil, like a plate"
What kind of plates are you using for dinner?
"Actually it's quite like a helicopter rotor disc,"
Ready for take-off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRkZN27Hp_k
What kind of plates are you using for dinner?
"Actually it's quite like a helicopter rotor disc,"
Ready for take-off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRkZN27Hp_k
Sorry, boys - to impress me in 2024, you'll have to come up with something better than 1932 (ffs) engineering language.
Let's try: https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-...-of-incidence/
"The angle of incidence is the angle between the longitudinal axis of the aircraft (draw a line from the spinner to the tail) and the chord line of the wing (draw a line from the leading edge to the trailing edge). This is not the same as your angle of attack. Your angle of attack is the angle between your chord line and the relative wind."
Angle of Incidence - built into the aircraft (albeit perhaps with a variable mount - F-8 Crusader, others)
Angle of Attack - a value that varies during flight, depending on the relative wind at the leading edge of the airfoil.
Let's try: https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-...-of-incidence/
"The angle of incidence is the angle between the longitudinal axis of the aircraft (draw a line from the spinner to the tail) and the chord line of the wing (draw a line from the leading edge to the trailing edge). This is not the same as your angle of attack. Your angle of attack is the angle between your chord line and the relative wind."
Angle of Incidence - built into the aircraft (albeit perhaps with a variable mount - F-8 Crusader, others)
Angle of Attack - a value that varies during flight, depending on the relative wind at the leading edge of the airfoil.
https://www.pilotmall.com/blogs/news...ehensive-guide
Better tell Dassault that they have it wrong with their incidence indicators and incidence limits.
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/26...page=47#manual
Last edited by zzuf; 19th Apr 2024 at 10:58.
A flight-simmers manual? Seriously? 
http://aergesengineering.com/index.php/about-us/
And translated from Dassault's original (again, from the last century) into English by - whom?
ABOUT US
Aerges Engineering SL is a Company specialized in flight simulation development for PC.
We have added NS-430 GPS Navigation System to the C-101EB and C-101CC integrated in the DCS World simulation platform.
We are currently developing a module of the Mirage F-1 for DCS World....
Aerges Engineering SL is a Company specialized in flight simulation development for PC.
We have added NS-430 GPS Navigation System to the C-101EB and C-101CC integrated in the DCS World simulation platform.
We are currently developing a module of the Mirage F-1 for DCS World....
And translated from Dassault's original (again, from the last century) into English by - whom?
Last edited by pattern_is_full; 19th Apr 2024 at 18:59.
A flight-simmers manual? Seriously
And translated from Dassault's original (again, from the last century) into English by - whom
You might do a little research on who zzuf is before taking a whip to him.
A flight-simmers manual? Seriously?
http://aergesengineering.com/index.php/about-us/
And translated from Dassault's original (again, from the last century) into English by - whom?
http://aergesengineering.com/index.php/about-us/
And translated from Dassault's original (again, from the last century) into English by - whom?
https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-...your-aircraft/
Moderator
A comment. I know both zzuf and megan and each is highly regarded in his field. In particular, l would be very careful arguing with zzuf on matters relating to certification flying.