YMML MEHT
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From: Living out of a suitcase
Not, just YMML. Take a look at YSSY (64 feet 16R/34L) and YPPH (71 feet for 03/21 and 24). As to why, it is to cater for the A380 so I've been told by checkies.
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From: Seat 1A
Originally Posted by extricate
Am I missing something?
The difference exists because, if the MEHT (for the PAPI) was 50ft, when the jet was on the GS, you'd see 4 whites out of your long/high body. Looking at it from another angle, if you did a visual approach without the GS, if you had a MEHT of 50ft and followed it, the wheels of your long/high jet would be very low over the threshold.
What this all means is that, when on the ILS GS, the PAPI will look basically OK (2W2R) when you're on short final. If you are in a tiddler, then, at the DA, you'll probably see 3R because your eyes and the GS are closer together.
A further clue is the physical location of the PAPI. It will be on the front edge of the aiming point marking, which, on a longer runway, is well past the 300m marker (which is where the GS touches the ground).
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From: Aus
What this all means is that, when on the ILS GS, the PAPI will look basically OK (2W2R) when you're on short final. If you are in a tiddler, then, at the DA, you'll probably see 3R because your eyes and the GS are closer together.
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From: Seat 1A
Originally Posted by Ollie Onion
Because Australians have to do everything slightly differently for no good reason.
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From: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
It’s a few years ago that I did the trig but IIRC (and if I was right !) every foot your aircraft’s MEHT is less than the PAPI’s MEHT, if you follow the PAPI and land like for like (same flare same AoD) you’ll land 6 metres longer.
Last edited by compressor stall; 6th April 2024 at 20:48. Reason: Clarity
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From: Here and there
Not just in a tiddler, a 737 will dip below the PAPI 'on slope' indication if it follows the ILS glide-slope indication, which is probably why a lot of 737s can't make November on 27 anymore, whereas most of the international heavies make it regularly. So at the minima it's better to follow the electronic glide-slope and use visual ques for the 300m touchdown marks rather than follow the PAPI and end up touching down at 450m.
Only half a speed-brake
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From: Commuting not home
This may not be very intuitive to a larger pool of us, and seeing through it (pun intended) requires just a little education, beyond the typical frontline curriculum.
Key takeaways:
+ 3 deg nominal profile (and a commonly adjusted GP) from 50' intersects the ground plane 291 m past the threshold.
+ Annex 14 ICAO standard marking LDA < 2400m have a so-called "aiming point" located at 300 m
+ Annex 14 ICAO standard markings for LDA > 2400 have the "aiming point" located at 400 m
+ ICAO Annex 14 standard for PAPI location is "abeam the aiming point markers" that yields 2 nominal MEHTs (as per above) of 50 and 66' feet
+ in P.A.P.I. the first P. stands for "electronic vertical plane", not that it needs to be aligned with GP of an ILS installation exactly
+ in P.A.P.I. the A stands for APPROACH and not LANDING.
+ any plane should be flown i.a.w. its AFM and not according to any painted rectangles / lightbeams
Sounds a bit rough but not intentionally, a small price for clarity and brevity.
Key takeaways:
+ 3 deg nominal profile (and a commonly adjusted GP) from 50' intersects the ground plane 291 m past the threshold.
+ Annex 14 ICAO standard marking LDA < 2400m have a so-called "aiming point" located at 300 m
+ Annex 14 ICAO standard markings for LDA > 2400 have the "aiming point" located at 400 m
+ ICAO Annex 14 standard for PAPI location is "abeam the aiming point markers" that yields 2 nominal MEHTs (as per above) of 50 and 66' feet
+ in P.A.P.I. the first P. stands for "electronic vertical plane", not that it needs to be aligned with GP of an ILS installation exactly
+ in P.A.P.I. the A stands for APPROACH and not LANDING.
+ any plane should be flown i.a.w. its AFM and not according to any painted rectangles / lightbeams
Sounds a bit rough but not intentionally, a small price for clarity and brevity.
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From: England
FD; [ Pedant on ]
PAPI - Precision Approach Path Indicator as per RAE Bedford 'invention' (actually the idea was French).
Regulators or world wide interpretations may differ.
[ Pedant off ]
A long time ago - ILS electronic glide paths were created by reflecting the beam off the ground in front of the transmitting aerial. Thus GS origin was the distance proportional to x deg in front of the aerial position (not exactly correct because the beam was subject to parabolic distortion proportional to the aerial lateral offset).
Do modern ILS GS transmitters still use a reflected beam?
If so then the diagrams require amendment / relabelling.
If not, how is the beam origin and thus runway interception defined?
PAPI - Precision Approach Path Indicator as per RAE Bedford 'invention' (actually the idea was French).
Regulators or world wide interpretations may differ.
[ Pedant off ]
A long time ago - ILS electronic glide paths were created by reflecting the beam off the ground in front of the transmitting aerial. Thus GS origin was the distance proportional to x deg in front of the aerial position (not exactly correct because the beam was subject to parabolic distortion proportional to the aerial lateral offset).
Do modern ILS GS transmitters still use a reflected beam?
If so then the diagrams require amendment / relabelling.
If not, how is the beam origin and thus runway interception defined?
Only half a speed-brake
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From: Commuting not home
Yes, shows my age a bit. The term "precision" is today (well inside the era of 2D/3D nomenclature) defined by the delivered performance (result) as opposed to my education time when it was directly describing the technology. Precision = vertical guidance provided by electronic means, and the light beam does exactly that. I may have used the equal sign there illegally.
To my knowledge, EW propagation don't change over time, surely still the first 1-6m of GP pattern is bent and the GP plane ground intercept is not exactly co-located with GP antenna spot. In that respect the graphic (from "flight crew" manual) is good enough to suggest a box where the ideally-straight GP comes from, upwards. The ground around the antenna needs special focus, some pictures show it.
The Airplane Flight Manual's 50-feet&3-deg ground intercept is defined as 50/[tan(3deg)] = 291,78 m (past the threshold) for the geometrical plane - and the engineers do their magic to align the GP signal to ... ehm ... close to there most of the time.
Well visible on the following :
+ distance marker 300 m
+ 3 deg plane somewhat shorter than 300 m
+ GP antenna anchored a little further to allow for GP bending,
To my knowledge, EW propagation don't change over time, surely still the first 1-6m of GP pattern is bent and the GP plane ground intercept is not exactly co-located with GP antenna spot. In that respect the graphic (from "flight crew" manual) is good enough to suggest a box where the ideally-straight GP comes from, upwards. The ground around the antenna needs special focus, some pictures show it.
The Airplane Flight Manual's 50-feet&3-deg ground intercept is defined as 50/[tan(3deg)] = 291,78 m (past the threshold) for the geometrical plane - and the engineers do their magic to align the GP signal to ... ehm ... close to there most of the time.
Well visible on the following :
+ distance marker 300 m
+ 3 deg plane somewhat shorter than 300 m
+ GP antenna anchored a little further to allow for GP bending,
Last edited by FlightDetent; 7th April 2024 at 05:58.
Only half a speed-brake
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From: Commuting not home
The idea here was rather to avoid splitting the hair on 50ft-3 deg VS. GP signal VS 300 marker VS antenna anchor,
and instead, share insight on the geometry why PAPI indication for the little aeroplanes like the A340 and smaller will be offset both from the GP indication and the correct visual aiming point (AFM).
The problem of pilot perception is corroborated by ICAO standard marking for LDA2400+ where the big rectangle is painted unnecessarily far down, to allow for the very large planes ( height offset between pilot pilot eye and GP antenna), and the PAPI getting stuck with that displacement.
and instead, share insight on the geometry why PAPI indication for the little aeroplanes like the A340 and smaller will be offset both from the GP indication and the correct visual aiming point (AFM).
The problem of pilot perception is corroborated by ICAO standard marking for LDA2400+ where the big rectangle is painted unnecessarily far down, to allow for the very large planes ( height offset between pilot pilot eye and GP antenna), and the PAPI getting stuck with that displacement.
Only half a speed-brake
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From: Commuting not home
In the US, the distance marker stays at 305 m (=1000') but PAPI can still be further down to accommodate the 747 and assure MLG clearance.
Last edited by FlightDetent; 7th April 2024 at 05:43.
Only half a speed-brake
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From: Commuting not home
Thus, the old adage "PAPI is unreliable (for landing) below 200ft" is only correct by coincidence. Light-beams don't bend, yet for most but very few select airplanes they are just coming from the right spot on the "international" runways.
And that's OK,
And that's OK,
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From: Seat 1A
Originally Posted by FD
where the big rectangle is painted unnecessarily far down, to allow for the very large planes
Originally Posted by FD
In the US, the distance marker stays at 305 m (=1000') but PAPI can still be further down to accommodate the 747 and assure MLG clearance.
747 aiming point - Following G/S or VASI's
With the gear down in the 747, the pilots eyes would definitely be heading somewhere in the vicinity of your 440m, way down the runway compared to the GS path.
Originally Posted by FD
My charts shows GP at THR of 60', meaning the signal is aligned to an imaginary distance of 1144 ft = 349 m past the threshold.
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From: Dark Side of the Moon
