Random 777 questions, part 1
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Joined: Mar 2006
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From: USA
Random 777 questions, part 1
Hi all, I hope I can tap into the knowledge base on this forum to answer a few 777 questions. Thanks in advance for the replies.
1. The door chapter says that at very high differential pressure, the vent flap cannot be opened. How high is very high?
2. Automatic WAI is inhibited when “Takeoff mode is selected” what exactly is takeoff mode? Does this refer to takeoff thrust (THR REF)?
3. Also, why’s WAI inhibited for the first 10 minutes?
4. Our manual states there’s no minimum oil quantity in flight, (but we do have a minimum for dispatch). How’s there no minimum in-flight oil quantity?
5. During a normal APU shutdown, can the shutdown be interrupted in the cooldown phase if you’ve changed your mind and decided to leave it running?
6. Does the APU fire bottle automatically discharge in the event of a fire in unattended mode?
7. In the flight control chapter, it says that in the secondary mode, simplified PFC laws lead to elevator and rudder being more sensitive at “some” speeds. Is this expanded upon anywhere?
1. The door chapter says that at very high differential pressure, the vent flap cannot be opened. How high is very high?
2. Automatic WAI is inhibited when “Takeoff mode is selected” what exactly is takeoff mode? Does this refer to takeoff thrust (THR REF)?
3. Also, why’s WAI inhibited for the first 10 minutes?
4. Our manual states there’s no minimum oil quantity in flight, (but we do have a minimum for dispatch). How’s there no minimum in-flight oil quantity?
5. During a normal APU shutdown, can the shutdown be interrupted in the cooldown phase if you’ve changed your mind and decided to leave it running?
6. Does the APU fire bottle automatically discharge in the event of a fire in unattended mode?
7. In the flight control chapter, it says that in the secondary mode, simplified PFC laws lead to elevator and rudder being more sensitive at “some” speeds. Is this expanded upon anywhere?
Joined: Mar 2012
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From: On the couch
Hi, new on type myself but this is what I understand:
2. After pressing TOGA wing anti ice will be inhibited for 10 minutes
3. It probably has to do with the aircraft´s performance. If I can compare to the 737, though it does not inhibit wing anti-ice after TO, it does trip off automatically after setting TO thrust if previously selected on.
On a side note, in the FCOM it´s written that as soon as icing is detected engine anti-ice will come on. However for the wing anti-ice to come on, it needs to detect icing for multiple cycles. So it seems Boeing believe it is not that critical to have wing anti-ice on immediately after TO.
4. you don´t take action based solely on a low engine oil quantity. It should be combined with high oil temp or low oil pressure. For example, there is no low engine oil qty checklist on the 737.
6. FCOM 8.20.4 "on the ground with both engines off an APU fire signal from either APU fire detector loop causus APU shutdown and extinguisher bottle discharge"
If anyone with more experience and knowledge on the B777 has better answers, please correct me.
Cheers,-
2. After pressing TOGA wing anti ice will be inhibited for 10 minutes
3. It probably has to do with the aircraft´s performance. If I can compare to the 737, though it does not inhibit wing anti-ice after TO, it does trip off automatically after setting TO thrust if previously selected on.
On a side note, in the FCOM it´s written that as soon as icing is detected engine anti-ice will come on. However for the wing anti-ice to come on, it needs to detect icing for multiple cycles. So it seems Boeing believe it is not that critical to have wing anti-ice on immediately after TO.
4. you don´t take action based solely on a low engine oil quantity. It should be combined with high oil temp or low oil pressure. For example, there is no low engine oil qty checklist on the 737.
6. FCOM 8.20.4 "on the ground with both engines off an APU fire signal from either APU fire detector loop causus APU shutdown and extinguisher bottle discharge"
If anyone with more experience and knowledge on the B777 has better answers, please correct me.
Cheers,-
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Blue sky
When the engine is running, the oil is in the engine, not at the place where it is measured. Pressures and temperatures indicate the oil functions as required. Valid for many jet engines...
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From: Not sure any more
5. During a normal APU shutdown, can the shutdown be interrupted in the cooldown phase if you’ve changed your mind and decided to leave it running?
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From: Central Europe
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From: Moscow
2. It looks likes “Takeoff mode” in this case is the same as for alert inhibits during takeoff: “Either engine in takeoff thrust range”.
3. Only automatic WAI operation is inhibited for 10 minutes. For manual operation it’s 5 minutes.
I agree with Rayfill, that’s done for performance reason, particularly for One Engine Inop takeoff. There’s extended 10 minute AFM time limitation for Takeoff thrust in the event of loss of thrust of one engine during takeoff. So they want to secure operating engine from inappropriate thrust reduction during that phase.
Joined: Jul 2013
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From: Everett, WA
The answers above are pretty good, I'll add a few things:
WAI draws a lot of bleed air from the engine - far more than ECS or Engine AI, so the potential impact to EGT margin is large. Further, on some Boeing types, WAI don't work if the slats are deployed as it opens the cavity that the WAI air is heating (not sure it that applies to the 777).
Oil quantity is 'advisory' only, and is not the most reliable or accurate measurement on the aircraft. An engine should never be shutdown in-flight for low oil quantity by itself - rather it's an indicator that you need to keep an eye on oil pressure and temperature. So long as they remain normal, no action is required.
WAI draws a lot of bleed air from the engine - far more than ECS or Engine AI, so the potential impact to EGT margin is large. Further, on some Boeing types, WAI don't work if the slats are deployed as it opens the cavity that the WAI air is heating (not sure it that applies to the 777).
Oil quantity is 'advisory' only, and is not the most reliable or accurate measurement on the aircraft. An engine should never be shutdown in-flight for low oil quantity by itself - rather it's an indicator that you need to keep an eye on oil pressure and temperature. So long as they remain normal, no action is required.
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From: France
Further, on some Boeing types, WAI don't work if the slats are deployed as it opens the cavity that the WAI air is heating (not sure it that applies to the 777).
On other Boeings with true slats, WAI is ok when they are deployed as the slats are not flat plates, but hollow, with enough internal space for a piccolo tube.
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From: Everett, WA
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: N/A
Hi!
2. It looks likes “Takeoff mode” in this case is the same as for alert inhibits during takeoff: “Either engine in takeoff thrust range”.
3. Only automatic WAI operation is inhibited for 10 minutes. For manual operation it’s 5 minutes.
I agree with Rayfill, that’s done for performance reason, particularly for One Engine Inop takeoff. There’s extended 10 minute AFM time limitation for Takeoff thrust in the event of loss of thrust of one engine during takeoff. So they want to secure operating engine from inappropriate thrust reduction during that phase.
2. It looks likes “Takeoff mode” in this case is the same as for alert inhibits during takeoff: “Either engine in takeoff thrust range”.
3. Only automatic WAI operation is inhibited for 10 minutes. For manual operation it’s 5 minutes.
I agree with Rayfill, that’s done for performance reason, particularly for One Engine Inop takeoff. There’s extended 10 minute AFM time limitation for Takeoff thrust in the event of loss of thrust of one engine during takeoff. So they want to secure operating engine from inappropriate thrust reduction during that phase.
Joined: Jul 2013
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From: Everett, WA
The FMC will likewise derate the max TO rating to account for the engine bleed - so it's somewhat transparent to the crew unless you're using the charts to manually calculate the max TO limits. If Engine AI is selected for TO, the FMC will likewise decrease the max TO weight due to the EAI max thrust reduction.
The exception to this would be if the FADECs are in Alternate mode, they don't do the bleed debits, but the FMC still should.
Joined: Sep 2011
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From: FL390
Yep, confused with previous type which would maintain T/O thrust at expense of engine margins until thrust reduction height. Thanks.
Have dug through the 777 manual and found the reference, thanks (current 787 pilot so while I'm apparently type-rated on the 777, the actual dynamics are obviously somewhat different, especially with bleeds).
Have dug through the 777 manual and found the reference, thanks (current 787 pilot so while I'm apparently type-rated on the 777, the actual dynamics are obviously somewhat different, especially with bleeds).
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From: UK
I know almost nothing about the 777 per se, but are you programming in all the descent winds?
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: USA
On the topic of engine anti-ice, the 777 seems pretty unique. It seems there are different performance packages. Some require only a minimal (200kg) correction for EAI on, while others require no correction at all.
That second set confuses me, as I’m not sure how the engineers managed that, but that’s what’s written in the performance section.
That second set confuses me, as I’m not sure how the engineers managed that, but that’s what’s written in the performance section.