B727 flap use above FL200
Hi Bergerie1, I think he said it was to get a better rate of climb when speed restricted on departure. It was over 30 years ago that I flew with him so I may be wrong as to the reason.
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FYI...
* This is taken from the Boeing Airliner magazine:
“Several operators have asked Boeing why the Airplane Flight Manual has
a limitation restricting the use of flaps above 20,000 feet. The reason for the
limitation is simple; Boeing does not demonstrate or test (and therefore
does not certify) airplanes for operations with flaps extended above 20,000
feet.
There is no Boeing procedure that requires the use of flaps above 20,000
feet. Since flaps are intended to be used during the takeoff and
approach/land phases of flight, and since Boeing is not aware of any
airports where operation would require the use of flaps above 20,000 feet,
there is no need to certify the airplane in this configuration.”
* This is taken from the Boeing Airliner magazine:
“Several operators have asked Boeing why the Airplane Flight Manual has
a limitation restricting the use of flaps above 20,000 feet. The reason for the
limitation is simple; Boeing does not demonstrate or test (and therefore
does not certify) airplanes for operations with flaps extended above 20,000
feet.
There is no Boeing procedure that requires the use of flaps above 20,000
feet. Since flaps are intended to be used during the takeoff and
approach/land phases of flight, and since Boeing is not aware of any
airports where operation would require the use of flaps above 20,000 feet,
there is no need to certify the airplane in this configuration.”
On my short stint on the VC10 I came cross one captain who knew more about vertical currents in rocket clouds than PF which resulted in a heavy turbulence check and several serious injuries and another who decided a visit to the airport chapel and a copious amount of prayers would ensure our flight safety which seemed to work although his wife made him live in the garage.
As Bergerie writes we are not test pilots although I have witnessed those in the office that think that it doesn’t apply to them as do their own procedures or the law.
My first lot decided to amend the design philosophies and the test pilots recommendation which left a smoking hole in a field.
There was an infamous DC 8 accident where the captain changed the air brake / lift dumper procedures which had them manually selected on short final, a heavy landing, go around and the wing folding downwind. I had a DC9 51 captain who would regularly stop auto lift dumper deployment on landing and another operate above MMO.
In theory flap selection makes a difference but from one post flying heavy metal with at least 5,000 hours and double that number take offs and mostly successful landings I have played around with stuff that test pilots supposedly do including the modification of aerofoils, control systems and C of G limits to enhance performance. Sometimes I’ve been successful, but it’s been my neck on the line and it’s after a lot of informed reading and discussion.
Enjoy retirement; it was a shame that they did way with your position as it was always a pleasure to fly with an engineer.
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What this man ⬆ said, totally. It happens most when people fly one aircraft type for years and years, forget how to fly aeroplanes generally, and get wrapped up in the minutae.
????
Flew 6 types of Jets over 22 years at the same time a few light aircraft and some instructing, followed by ten years of varied gliders, motor gliders, microlights and class A overlapping with 22 years of Paragliders. (30 years of model aircraft concurrently).
The type of flying involving extremely close to terrain with experimental aircraft in marginal conditions lends itself to 110% understanding of the limitations of both machine and man.
As to forgetting how to fly aeroplanes generally..they go where you point them and just in case I ordered a new reserve parachute Sunday.
Flew 6 types of Jets over 22 years at the same time a few light aircraft and some instructing, followed by ten years of varied gliders, motor gliders, microlights and class A overlapping with 22 years of Paragliders. (30 years of model aircraft concurrently).
The type of flying involving extremely close to terrain with experimental aircraft in marginal conditions lends itself to 110% understanding of the limitations of both machine and man.
As to forgetting how to fly aeroplanes generally..they go where you point them and just in case I ordered a new reserve parachute Sunday.
In the incident the flaps were never extended. The investigation came up with a silly scenario to explain the departure of the leading edge device because Boeing insisted that the leading edge actuator could never fail. But it was later shown it could fail - and the twisted logic scenario the FAA proposed could never happen.
Every pilot knows that the flaps increase drag. It was shown that "popping" the flaps as propsed indeed increased drag and that anyone who actually tried it in real life would experience greatly decereased performance - as you would expect. The idea that Boeing designed a wing so badly that a pilot "popping" the flaps out would improve performance is laughable - except to the idiots at the FAA.
The Captain who recovered the jet upset after the actuator failure, who should have been hailed as a hero, was pilloried by the investigation for nothing.
Every pilot knows that the flaps increase drag. It was shown that "popping" the flaps as propsed indeed increased drag and that anyone who actually tried it in real life would experience greatly decereased performance - as you would expect. The idea that Boeing designed a wing so badly that a pilot "popping" the flaps out would improve performance is laughable - except to the idiots at the FAA.
The Captain who recovered the jet upset after the actuator failure, who should have been hailed as a hero, was pilloried by the investigation for nothing.
Moderator
Maybe, but the crew deleted all the cockpit voice recorder data because…?
.. because that has been standard Industrial pilot practice for donkeys' years. I would have been astounded had they NOT wiped the record !
(Caveat - I am a bit removed from practical pulling and pushing these days so my comments may only apply to days of yore ? Certainly, in my airline days it was a pretty standard process as the intention was that the CVR only be read in the event of dead pilots. Many crews made it a routine practice to wipe the CVR at the end of every sector. As you might be aware, not all airline management groups are of high moral integrity seeking only the truth of any matter. The only instances I can recall where this was not the practice was where the captain saw fit to use the CVR as evidence for some problem or another and required the unit to be pulled post flight.)
.. because that has been standard Industrial pilot practice for donkeys' years. I would have been astounded had they NOT wiped the record !
(Caveat - I am a bit removed from practical pulling and pushing these days so my comments may only apply to days of yore ? Certainly, in my airline days it was a pretty standard process as the intention was that the CVR only be read in the event of dead pilots. Many crews made it a routine practice to wipe the CVR at the end of every sector. As you might be aware, not all airline management groups are of high moral integrity seeking only the truth of any matter. The only instances I can recall where this was not the practice was where the captain saw fit to use the CVR as evidence for some problem or another and required the unit to be pulled post flight.)
Apologies Alex.
John I would add wrt cvr that I and another co pilot were set up by a captain on descent into home base with some derogatory comment about a manager and then left the flight deck. We weren’t stupid and communicated by sign and mouthing. On stand I wiped the CVR and was faced with a tirade from said captain.
John I would add wrt cvr that I and another co pilot were set up by a captain on descent into home base with some derogatory comment about a manager and then left the flight deck. We weren’t stupid and communicated by sign and mouthing. On stand I wiped the CVR and was faced with a tirade from said captain.
Ok thanks for the insight. perhaps a shame for his own defence, that the Captain/crew decided that losing control and flying inverted wasn’t worthy of being one of those instances.
Blind Pew, many thanks.
As to the F/E and Coachman, I couldn't possibly comment!
Had one captain on the Electra that thought he should sit in the middle seat as it was a bit higher than the pilot seats and had a better view. He also thought I should be down below stoking.
I'm enjoying retirement.
Dixi
As to the F/E and Coachman, I couldn't possibly comment!
Had one captain on the Electra that thought he should sit in the middle seat as it was a bit higher than the pilot seats and had a better view. He also thought I should be down below stoking.
I'm enjoying retirement.
Dixi
DIXI;
Instructed for a mate at Blackbushe on the Condor who went on to drive the Electra…AA.
He raved about it having grown up - if he ever did - on Shackletons.
Wasn’t it one of those that did a touch and go at Shannon without the wheels?
There was a short lived movement to do similar on the Trident with the captain on the middle seat supposedly as the Russkies did at the time.
Instructed for a mate at Blackbushe on the Condor who went on to drive the Electra…AA.
He raved about it having grown up - if he ever did - on Shackletons.
Wasn’t it one of those that did a touch and go at Shannon without the wheels?
There was a short lived movement to do similar on the Trident with the captain on the middle seat supposedly as the Russkies did at the time.
DIXI;
Instructed for a mate at Blackbushe on the Condor who went on to drive the Electra…AA.
He raved about it having grown up - if he ever did - on Shackletons.
Wasn’t it one of those that did a touch and go at Shannon without the wheels?
There was a short lived movement to do similar on the Trident with the captain on the middle seat supposedly as the Russkies did at the time.
Instructed for a mate at Blackbushe on the Condor who went on to drive the Electra…AA.
He raved about it having grown up - if he ever did - on Shackletons.
Wasn’t it one of those that did a touch and go at Shannon without the wheels?
There was a short lived movement to do similar on the Trident with the captain on the middle seat supposedly as the Russkies did at the time.
I flew on that aircraft during my training with Zantop.
https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=19990301-0
Dixi.
They did well to get it back on the ground…remember flying an aircraft that required cancelling the gear horn every time you closed the throttles…iirc Douglas; not unlike the Trident in early days where the droop micro switches were badly adjusted…select them in, cancel the amber attention getters automatically.
