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First A320 without GPS

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First A320 without GPS

Old 23rd Mar 2021, 09:57
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First A320 without GPS

Maybe somebody remembers...

The first A320 were build without GPS.
Since when were they build with GPS?
Are there any left flying without it?

Thanks in advance...
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Old 24th Mar 2021, 18:51
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Not a definitive answer to your first question but the first few A321s delivered to my then employer in 1998 didnít have GPS. However within the year the remaining aircraft within the original order were delivered with GPS and the earlier aircraft were retrospectively fitted.

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Old 25th Mar 2021, 05:25
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Nothing was fitted with GPS in the early 90’s. 737’s 747’s all relied on IRS and legacy nav aids.
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Old 25th Mar 2021, 10:23
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Difficult question. My understanding at the time (90s) was that after a certain MSN, all MMRs fitted included GPS which the operator had to pay extra to have activated. Presumably ac prior to that MSN could be retro-fitted with the GPS capable MMRs.
My airline at the time had 320s which were not GPS capable, but the GPWS box fitted was. So the GPWS knew where we were even if we didn't!
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Old 25th Mar 2021, 11:59
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Air Canada 759 that almost landed on a SFO taxiway full of airplanes didn't have GPS. But, that was almost three years ago.
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Old 25th Mar 2021, 16:37
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Sidebar

aterpster, re "didn't have GPS" - yes, that's correct. To be clear, the NTSB does not cite the absence of GPS as a primary cause:

From the Wiki:
In a September 25, 2018 board meeting, the NTSB cited as probable cause the pilots mistaking taxiway C for runway 28R due to overlooking the closure of runway 28L in the NOTAM report. Contributing factors included not taking advantage of the ILS, which was not in use by the flight crew, in the flight management system (FMS) visual approach; and pilot fatigue. The crew's body clock was at the Toronto 03:00 Eastern Time: the first officer had no significant rest for 12 h, and the captain for 19 h – he would not have been able to fly under US pilot fatigue rules. Transport Canada planned to bring its pilot rest rules in line with international standards later in 2018.[26] New regulations were announced in December 2018, closer to international standards but criticized as substandard by the Air Canada Pilots Association.[27]
From the NTSB Report, (footnote):
(a) Honeywell’s Mark V and Mark VII EGPWS Pilot’s Guide indicated that RAAS required a GPS source. At
the time of the incident, Air Canada operated 42 A320-200 airplanes, some of which were equipped with a GPS; the
incident airplane was not equipped with a GPS. A June 2018 e-mail from Air Canada to the NTSB indicated that all
of the airplanes in the company’s A320-200 fleet had been equipped with a GPS. (b) Honeywell also offered another
optional feature, the SmartRunway system, which was designed to alert flight crews to an impending taxiway landing
as well as an impending taxiway takeoff.
There's plenty to say about Canada's flight time & duty regulations, but not here. regarding the original poster's question, I believe most A320's were initially delivered without GPS, (~1988, on).
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Old 25th Mar 2021, 18:22
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From an Airbus slide relating to PBN, it states GPS became standard around MSN:1995, which was delivered in May 2003, although GPS was an option on earlier aircraft.
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Old 25th Mar 2021, 23:53
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in out fleet, the last non GPS aircraft left the fleet in januari 2020. I do know some none gos still fly
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Old 26th Mar 2021, 13:10
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Originally Posted by PJ2 View Post
aterpster, re "didn't have GPS" - yes, that's correct. To be clear, the NTSB does not cite the absence of GPS as a primary cause:
I didn't to imply that it did. In fact, UAL, the lead carrier on that particular procedure, FMS BRIDGE VISUAL Rwy 28R (R28R) flight inspected it both with GPS and DME/DME.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 10:53
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The evolution on the A320 ...

Unrelated to the GPS subject, but for instance the first 20 or so airframes did not had winglets. They were at BA and AF.

MSN 22 and 23, it seems, were the first to have winglets. They were at Ansett.

This aircraft had the normal Airbus logic of in case of Dual Imput on the yokes the resultant is the arithmetic sum of both imputs, but they did not had the advisory synthetic voice "Dual Imput". Don't know when it latter on became standard ...
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 11:46
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Correct. There were only 21 of the A320-100 series (specifically the A320-111) built.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 12:12
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I have flown a few sub-1000 msn aircraft, but they all were GPS equipped, either retrofitted or ordered as an option. Mind you, they were better equipped to begin with: ice sensors and foot warmers, the latter one being a real help on those long 5 to 6 hour sectors.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 15:02
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The A320 of today has come a long way from the initial -100 delivered in the late 1980s with the list of what they did not have in comparison with one coming out of the factory today being extensive.There is also a huge list of customer options available to a buyer. I first encountered GPS in a factory delivered A332 in 1999 but this was when the accuracy of gps was deliberately degraded to 100m by the US military.
For the A320 family it was probably the introduction of the Honeywell pegasus fmgc that brought gps into use. Who remembers the original fmgc fit that had the tuned VOR at the bottom of the Prog page?
There is a history of Honeywell fmgc aboard Airbus in this document
https://aerospace.honeywell.com/cont..._A330_A320.pdf

Last edited by tubby linton; 29th Mar 2021 at 15:15.
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 01:09
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Denti

Funny story. We have one 319/320 of 150+- flying around with the switch for the foot warmers installed. It wasn’t in our manual so I asked the fleet about it. They said Airbus screwed up and put the switch in but then realized our company didn’t order foot warmers so never connected it. (I would have much preferred foot warmers on the 727!)
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Old 7th Apr 2021, 21:35
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I might actually start a thread entitled ' Which options our company Bean Counters turned down that we would all have liked or would have actually saved money'!
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Old 8th Apr 2021, 09:53
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Foot heaters. Definitely foot heaters.
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Old 15th Apr 2021, 10:51
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Had no time to look for a few days, but thank you all for the information.

In my old company AeroLloyd we had a few serial numbers below 1000 but all had GPS as far as I remember.
Later I flew some A320s without it. But we all had footwarmers . Airbus even offered a low temp and a high temp version.
Thanks again for your comments.
Always happy landings..
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Old 15th Apr 2021, 11:10
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I remember very early ones being used on french domestic routes like Paris-Toulouse.The very earliest had no wingtip fences yet but rounded wingtips. They were retired years ago. Very likely without GPS.
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Old 15th Apr 2021, 11:48
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The first A320 were model -100, which had a notable number of differences to the model -200 which became the standard, although of course considerably upgraded since. Some of the differences are noted above, such as plain wingtips. The first 21 aircraft built in 1987-8 were this standard, only BA and Air France had them; aircraft 22 onwards were -200. The last -100 was withdrawn and scrapped over 10 years ago. Some of the Air France ones were originally with Air Inter, their onetime domestic operation, while the BA ones were an original British Caledonian order, the first being delivered just a few days before the merger, in BA colours. Pictures of one in B Cal livery are of an Airbus prototype which had been previously painted thus, one side only.
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Old 16th Apr 2021, 15:03
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Iīve flown a couple of them without Wingtips and even without a table!!! That was something
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