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P2 Handling

Old 6th Dec 2019, 10:53
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P2 Handling

I noticed on a recent A350 video (LH) the copilot was the handling pilot on the flight. He was only given control of the aircraft when lined up on the runway. The aircraft appeared to have steering at the P2 station. On takeoff the copilot did not have his hands on the thrust levers, Captain handled the thrust at all times. Presumably if a malfunction occurs before V1, with the Co-Pilot handling, he calls Stop but the NHP closes the thrust levers? Seems an odd way to operate.
In my UK airline (B744) when the copilot is operating the sector, after engine start, we had complete role reversal. Copilot taxying. Handles thrust levers on take off and calls stop if necessary, loss off control, blocked runway etc. etc.. Captain of course can countermand at any time.
Are copilots in some airlines not experienced, or fully trained, in all aspects of the operation?
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 11:32
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Takeoff roll is a very critical phase of flight, where correct decision to stop or continue should be made promptly and there is no time for discussion about it. Generally the captain has the most experience on the flightdeck, so they are normally the most qualified person to make that decison. Plus, ultimately responsible for it as well. To me it makes sense that captain has hand on the thrust levers during takeoff once takeoff thrust has been set, even though I am a big fan of "PF handles aircraft from parking brake release to parking brake set" (where flight deck configuration allows).

In my UK airline (B744) when the copilot is operating the sector, after engine start, we had complete role reversal. Copilot taxying. Handles thrust levers on take off and calls stop if necessary, loss off control, blocked runway etc. etc.. Captain of course can countermand at any time.
Are copilots in some airlines not experienced, or fully trained, in all aspects of the operation?
Forgive the ignorance, but are your copilots not fully trained in talking with ground staff during pushback and starting the engines?
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 12:01
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I think it varies from airline to airline. Most of our (Boeings) only have a tiller on the LHS, so the Captain drives it to the runway then hands over if the RHS is PF. On landing rollout the Captain will take over again and take it to the ramp.
In all cases, once thrust is set the Captain takes or keeps the thrust levers until V1 and initiates any RTO while the PF keeps it straight. Works pretty well.
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 12:47
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It is Airbus philosophy that reject takeoff is done by CM1. All reject actions are seat oriented.
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 13:09
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Airlines vary.

At my first, F/Os, even 2 stripers in BAe 146s, were allowed to talk to ground crew, start four (non FADEC) engines, taxi to the runway and take off. After landing, F/O kept control and taxiied in, and this included operations in LHR and CDG. They only handed to Captain if the stand guidance was set up for the LHS.

Next airline which flew medium and big Airbus FBW, F/Os were not allowed to taxi, despite the modern aircraft being configured for either side to taxi as standard. The pilot bosses clearly did not trust the F/Os, but they eventually gave in and allowed F/Os to taxi, but probably only because the manufacturer’s SOPs that were adopted specified this. But they still didn’t allow F/Os to taxi onto stand even if the guidance was valid for both sides.

Next airline, also medium and big Airbus FBW, allowed F/Os to do all, including turning onto stand and stopping in the right place.

However, always Captain’s hands on thrust levers after setting T/O thrust, which is fair enough, and as vilas states, SOPs are designed around this.
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 13:41
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Flying Stone

Sorry my error. On a co pilot handling sector ,role reversal is from engine start. P2 starts engines, handles pushback etc. taxy ,(I checked for current SOP with a relative LHR based, P2 on A380)
A P2 on a two crew aircraft presumably must be fully experienced, trained, and Line cleared, for all aspects of the operation ie crew incapacitation.
I'm surprised that some airlines P2 not trusted with thrust lever handling/RTO. Quite a straight forward decision to call "Stop" for Loss control, Engine failure /fire warning. Blocked runway etc.
Agree, difficult to taxy with no tiller on your side!
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 13:42
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The only airline Iíve worked for that has the FO handle TLs in the takeoff roll was probably a (now extinct) wholly owned subsidiary of cessnapeteís employer.

i actually prefer the captain owning the reject vs the FO and that was both as an FO and now a skipper. As mentioned SOPs and responsibilities are designed around this. Iíve flown for airlines that allow FO taxiing and airlines that donít. Different strokes for different chief pilots I guess.

The PM operating the reversers on landing I thought was strange, though Iíve never worked to that SOP myself.
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 14:01
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Originally Posted by cessnapete View Post
A P2 on a two crew aircraft presumably must be fully experienced, trained, and Line cleared, for all aspects of the operation ie crew incapacitation.
I'm surprised that some airlines P2 not trusted with thrust lever handling/RTO.
Co-pilots can still be trained and checked (as they should be) on how to perform an RTO from RHS in case of captain incapacitation, but it doesn't mean it's good idea to do it every day.

At least for 737, I am happy to argue that the 3-step RTO maneuver (thrust levers idle, speedbrakes up, select full reverse) is much easier from LHS, as the speedbrake lever is on that side.
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 14:06
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A P2 on a two crew aircraft presumably must be fully experienced, trained, and Line cleared, for all aspects of the operation ie crew incapacitation.
You must be very naÔve if you think that is true the world over.

"Fully trained, and Line cleared" maybe, but certainly not fully experienced and unfortunately in many cases, not competent either.

Last edited by Centaurus; 6th Dec 2019 at 14:32.
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 14:30
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The PM operating the reversers on landing I thought was strange, though I’ve never worked to that SOP myself.
"Strange" is an understatement. It has the potential to be downright dangerous.

Edited for brevity Extract from Boeing 737 FCTM:
Landing rollout on a slippery runway with crosswind..as the airplane starts to weathervane into the wind, the reverse thrust side force component adds to the crosswind component and drifts the airplane to the downwind side of the runway...also high braking forces reduce the capability of the tires to corner. To correct back to centreline, release the brakes and reduce reverse thrust to reverse idle.

Releasing the brakes increases the tire-cornering capability and contributes to maintaining or regaining control directional control. Setting reverse idle reduces the reverse thrust side force component without the requirement to go through the full reverser actuation cycle. When directional control using rudder pedal steering and differential braking is regained, apply maximum braking and symmetrical reverse thrust to stop the airplane.

With one pilot on the controls and the other on reverse thrust can you just imagine the confusion as both pilots try to coordinate their respective duties as the aircraft slides sideways. The obvious solution is that whoever is doing the landing does the reverse thrust handling as well.
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 16:05
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Operated the F50 in JAA, as far as I can remember all handling (taxi, reject aso) was done by the PF, now on the short bus in FAA. LP taxi and hand on TL durin T/O roll, and takes control for reject and during roll-out. Maybe okay when FO is inexperienced, but I really didn't think it is the best way. I upgraded having almost no taxi experience, got less than 10 sectors of OE/line training, and on my first trip as a captain flew with an FO with less than 200 hours in the aircraft. Don't think he would have been ready if I had headed for the grass! (I wasn't worried because I had close to a decade in the left seat, but we were upgrading people with very little relevant PIC time). Learning how to do everything with a more experienced pilot in the left seat next to you makes more sense than trying to learn with a newbie on your right. The whole argument that you should be experienced in everything by the time you upgrade really doesn't apply if no-one lets FOs taxi or reject.....
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 16:11
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Flying the small bus for a small european airline as an FO.
We get training for RTO on every sim but as per Airbus procedure in case of actual RTO, CM1 takes control.
However I get to taxi from block off till block on...
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 16:28
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What is the crosswind limit for FOs at your airline cessnapete?


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Old 6th Dec 2019, 17:00
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At almost all US airlines, thatís standard. Even with a tiller on the right side, the FO does not taxi the aircraft. Only the CA is experienced enough to screw up taxi instructions.
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 17:25
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I'm probably at a similar airline to cessna.

When I got my ticket to sit in the LHS I'd been taxing the aircraft for many years - I leant the skill with able Skippers teaching me. So upon sitting in the LHS, it was just granted that I knew how to taxi.

Crosswind limits for F/O's are 2/3rds.
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 17:50
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I think itís not about competences or skills to taxi an aircraft .

CM1 PF on ground does establish a gradient in the cockpit and is certainly related to a hierarchical task sharing e.g : there are tasks performed by Captain only during normal operations (as opposed to RTO which is abnormal).


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Old 6th Dec 2019, 19:12
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Originally Posted by Check Airman View Post
At almost all US airlines, thatís standard. Even with a tiller on the right side, the FO does not taxi the aircraft. Only the CA is experienced enough to screw up taxi instructions.
Years ago at Pan Am most of the FO's were type-rated and taxied on aircraft with tillers on both sides like the A310, 747 and even some 727's I think. When American ordered their A300-600's they were spec'ed with the right hand tiller removed since they didn't allow the FO's to taxi.

Originally Posted by hans brinker View Post
I upgraded having almost no taxi experience, got less than 10 sectors of OE/line training, and on my first trip as a captain flew with an FO with less than 200 hours in the aircraft. Don't think he would have been ready if I had headed for the grass! (I wasn't worried because I had close to a decade in the left seat, but we were upgrading people with very little relevant PIC time). Learning how to do everything with a more experienced pilot in the left seat next to you makes more sense than trying to learn with a newbie on your right. The whole argument that you should be experienced in everything by the time you upgrade really doesn't apply if no-one lets FOs taxi or reject.....
I feel your pain. When I upgraded I had already taxied from the right seat with two other airlines but was rusty. The IOE guy was big on shutting down an engine after cooldown to save gas on the ETOPS twin. I was not at all comfortable with swinging the plane around on a crowded ramp only to find that the gate was on the wrong side of the shut down motor. I've seen the Bob Hoover act where the captain shuts down the second engine on a twin rolling into the blocks only to get stopped short of the gate for a stray baggage cart.
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 20:51
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I went from captain doing the autothrottle, to doing everything myself including asking engines to set the power on a heavy jet to13 years of only getting the aircraft after clean up until landing the nose gear.
I understood the second and third philosophies.
In the old days of unrealisable engines, poor engine out performance and terrain it made sense. Since I had the employment conditions that most wouldn’t believe then I couldn’t care a dam.
it was about giving our passengers the safest and best operation that we could.
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 23:33
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CruiseMonkey. 2/3 Capt limit.

I was obviously lucky to have flown with such an enlightened employer. On reading, in my opinion, the various experience limiting restrictions on their F/Os operations.

Although we won’t mention the dreaded Monitored Approach SOP!!

Last edited by cessnapete; 6th Dec 2019 at 23:55.
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Old 7th Dec 2019, 04:31
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Transferring control while on the runway has always struck me as the worst possible time to do so. Why not transfer control on the taxiway? We're not flying 737's. (Does the 737 even have an option for a tiller on the right?) As to transferring control for an RTO...

That last one is Airbus SOP though. No clue why.
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