Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Tech Log
Reload this Page >

A320 APU bleed use with engine damaged or not damaged

Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

A320 APU bleed use with engine damaged or not damaged

Old 13th Feb 2019, 19:06
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Doha
Age: 8
Posts: 365
A320 APU bleed use with engine damaged or not damaged

Airbus 320, use of APU bleed with or without engine damaged. Is there anywhere in FCOM that explains this in simple terms.
Black Pudding is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2019, 21:34
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: World
Posts: 1,483
Read ECAM

page 2, bleed configuration-eng malfunction

Easier to try all the combinations than reading the FCOM, assuming that you can find it there (the important things are usually well hidden).

Hope it helps.

Last edited by dirk85; 13th Feb 2019 at 21:54.
dirk85 is online now  
Old 13th Feb 2019, 22:25
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Dark Side of the Moon
Posts: 716
Abnormal procedures ‘Eng Shutdown’ Procedure has a little explanation of when you can use the APU bleed after engine shutdown. Without damage there is no restriction, with damage you have to be careful which engine you use it with to prevent contamination from the fire suppressant. If ENG 1 is shutdown with damage you can’t use the bleed at all, if ENG 2 is shutdown then you can shut the bleed crossfeed and use the app bleed to take some load off the good eng.
Ollie Onion is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2019, 08:48
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wanderlust
Posts: 2,121
BP
It's simple if you remember APU bleed architecture. APU bleed is connected to the left of the cross bleed. So if no.2 engine is damaged you can use the APU Ableed for no 1 pack keeping the cross bleed closed. But if no.1 engine is damaged APU bleed cannot be used as the cross bleed has to be kept closed to avoid contamination.
vilas is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2019, 07:07
  #5 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Doha
Age: 8
Posts: 365
dirk, Ollie and vilas

Thank you for your replies

i am already aware of the scenarios regarding when I can, but I was asked by a trainee to show where in the manuals it explains this and apart from the ECAM display in Abnormal ENG SHUT DOWN, which by the way does not explain if number 1 or 2, I can’t seem to locate any other information. How does ECAM know if there is damage, would it be if the fire push button has been used, then the x bleed open option will not appear. I can’t seem to remember any display saying close x bleed. Does a status ever say close x bleed. If we have used engine 2 fire push button, will it then say close x bleed. Will status always correctly instruct you.
Black Pudding is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2019, 11:50
  #6 (permalink)  
Cak
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: At home
Age: 37
Posts: 87
Originally Posted by Black Pudding View Post
dirk, Ollie and vilas

Thank you for your replies

i am already aware of the scenarios regarding when I can, but I was asked by a trainee to show where in the manuals it explains this and apart from the ECAM display in Abnormal ENG SHUT DOWN, which by the way does not explain if number 1 or 2, I can’t seem to locate any other information. How does ECAM know if there is damage, would it be if the fire push button has been used, then the x bleed open option will not appear. I can’t seem to remember any display saying close x bleed. Does a status ever say close x bleed. If we have used engine 2 fire push button, will it then say close x bleed. Will status always correctly instruct you.
I believe that Ollie just gave you the reference and Villas explanation
It's not on ECAM, but look for it in FCOM, ABN, ENG SHUT DOWN......there is a note at the end of that procedure
Cak is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2019, 16:46
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wanderlust
Posts: 2,121
How does ECAM know if there is damage, would it be if the fire push button has been used, then the x bleed open option will not appear.
You got it.
vilas is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2019, 17:41
  #8 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Doha
Age: 8
Posts: 365
Originally Posted by vilas View Post
You got it.
would it know if engine 2 fire push button has been pushed to closed x bleed ?
Black Pudding is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2019, 07:08
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: N5109.2W10.5
Posts: 580
would it know if engine 2 fire push button has been pushed to closed x bleed ?
It's not that smart.
Despite any fire push button been pushed, the X Bleed valve will open when you introduce APU bleed air. You have to select the X bleed valve closed before opening APU bleed valve (in anticipation - Avoid) or subsequently when you observe the X bleed valve has opened when you look at the pneumatics page (reactionary - Trap).

Last edited by Goldenrivett; 16th Feb 2019 at 16:52.
Goldenrivett is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2019, 09:47
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wanderlust
Posts: 2,121
would it know if engine 2 fire push button has been pushed to closed x bleed ?
ECAM will ask you to shut the cross bleed. FCOM will tell you in case of No.2 fail APU bleed can be opened keeping cross bleed shut.
vilas is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2019, 18:19
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: N5109.2W10.5
Posts: 580
Hi vilas,
ECAM will ask you to shut the cross bleed.
I've only seen that when Wing Anti-ice is in use. I've not seen ECAM direct to close X Bleed when Wing Anti-ice is off and APU bleed is on.
Goldenrivett is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2019, 15:35
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wanderlust
Posts: 2,121
Hi Golden
This is what I see in FCOM:
 If ENG FIRE pb-sw pushed:
X BLEED ...........SHUT
WING ANTI ICE..............OFF
AVOID ICING CONDITIONS

Last edited by vilas; 18th Feb 2019 at 17:39.
vilas is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2019, 15:42
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: N5109.2W10.5
Posts: 580
Hi vilas,
Correct. That's all I can find also.
I'm confident there is no ECAM advice if X bleed opens with the introduction of APU bleed air - despite Eng Fire PB having been pushed.
Goldenrivett is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2019, 16:18
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wanderlust
Posts: 2,121
Golden
Since ECAM asked you to shut cross bleed manually then APU bleed cannot open it automatically.
vilas is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2019, 17:01
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: In my own little world
Posts: 1,273
Hi Vilas, I don't recall seeing the line to close it when wing anti-ice is not in use. All I can find is a note at the end of Eng shut down in FCOM.

- If the ENG 1 FIRE pb-sw is pushed, APU bleed must not be used.
- If ENG 2 FIRE pb-sw is pushed, APU bleed may be used, provided the X BLEED rotary selector is set at SHUT.

The implication there seems to be that it is not automatically inhibited by pushing the Fire p/b.
lurkio is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2019, 17:35
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wanderlust
Posts: 2,121
The implication there seems to be that it is not automatically inhibited by pushing the Fire p/b.
Quote
Off course it isn't automatically inhibited but ECAM asks you to shut the cross bleed. And that's why APU bleed will not automatically open it. FCOM explains when APU bleed can be used.
vilas is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2019, 17:49
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wanderlust
Posts: 2,121
In short, ECAM senses damage by the pushed Fire button. Then it asks you to shut the Cross bleed manually. Since Anti ice should be symetrically used it asks you to close it. If engine 2 is damaged APU bleed can be used keeping the cross bleed shut.
vilas is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2019, 19:39
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: N5109.2W10.5
Posts: 580
In short, ECAM senses damage by the pushed Fire button. Then it asks you to shut the Cross bleed manually. Since Anti ice should be symetrically used it asks you to close it.
That is all provided the first condition is met i.e. "If wing anti-ice ON:" - hence the request to switch "WING ANT ICE .... OFF"
If wing anti-ice is not on - non of that logic is displayed.

If you get a chance, please investigate your simulator ECAM logic with WING ANT ICE OFF, APU Bleed ON & ENG FIRE pb-sw pushed.
Goldenrivett is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2019, 02:54
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wanderlust
Posts: 2,121
There's a whole page about engine shut down. Do you think everything is linked to Anti ice?
 If wing Anti-ice ON:
 If Elec Emer Config:
PACK1........OFF
L2 In Emer Elec, only Pack 1 pb-sw can be controlled off.
L1  If not Elec Emer Config:
PACK (AFFECTED SIDE) ...............OFF
L2 One pack must be closed when wing anti-ice is in use due to precooler performance.
L1 X BLEED (IF ENG FIRE PB NOT PUSHED)...............OPEN
L2 X BLEED pb-sw must be opened to have symmetrical wing anti-icing.
L1 ENG MODE SEL.............IGN
L2 Continuous ignition is selected, in order to protect the remaining engine.
L1  IF NO FUEL LEAK:
IMBALANCE................MONITOR
TCAS MODE SEL  .......TA
 If REV unlocked:
 IF BUFFET:
MAX SPEED ............................................................ .................................................. 240 KT
 If ENG FIRE pb-sw pushed:
XBLEED ............. SHUT
WING ANTI ICE............OFF
AVOID ICING CONDITIONS
vilas is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2019, 06:00
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: N5109.2W10.5
Posts: 580
Do you think everything is linked to Anti ice?
No.
Only those lines which include mentions to
"One pack must be closed when wing anti-ice is in use due to precooler performance.
L1 X BLEED (IF ENG FIRE PB NOT PUSHED)...............OPEN
L2 X BLEED pb-sw must be opened to have symmetrical wing anti-icing."
&
"If ENG FIRE pb-sw pushed:
XBLEED ............. SHUT
WING ANTI ICE............OFF
AVOID ICING CONDITIONS"

I don't have access to a simulator any more - if you get a chance please investigate.
I was caught out once by this so won't forget.
Goldenrivett is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.