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LHR 160 till 4dme

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LHR 160 till 4dme

Old 13th Aug 2018, 08:40
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
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Checking info on "MCP selections".

Selected IAS NOT transmiitedonly actual IAS.

Apologies Gents.
unitedabx is offline  
Old 13th Aug 2018, 09:01
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Australia
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Folks,
One airline from SE Asia is not happy about config. changes on "short final" so flies with Flap 30, gear down all the way from about 3000 ft, rather defeating the noise minimization aspect of the procedure.
Tootle pip!!
LeadSled is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2018, 03:52
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Fragrant Harbour
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One airline from SE Asia is not happy about config. changes on "short final" so flies with Flap 30, gear down all the way from about 3000 ft,
Many airlines from that part of the world have rigid stabilisation criteria and no mercy when it is found these have been broken. The guys aren't taking a chance of being punished. An unintended consequence of the rules.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 05:10
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
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One airline from SE Asia is not happy about config. changes on "short final"
Short finals is very vague. The airline may be too strict about Stabilized approach by 1000ft. so one can push it up 1500. Three thousand is way too much. I don't know how the airline can accept that.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 07:04
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Originally Posted by vilas View Post
Short finals is very vague. The airline may be too strict about Stabilized approach by 1000ft. so one can push it up 1500. Three thousand is way too much. I don't know how the airline can accept that.
Vilas,
There was a reason why "short final" was in inverted commas.
It was/is not a matter of the airline accepting, but requiring, the aircraft be in the landing configuration, checks complete, at approx. 10nm/3000 agl.
Dan in the previous post "gets it".
Tootle pip!!
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 09:39
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Originally Posted by Max Angle View Post
Actually I think the only selected (as opposed to indicated) data that is displayed to the controller is altitude.
Nah they can definitely see what speed you have selected on the MCP. Hence why flying an approach with managed speed into Heathrow (as long as S and F speeds comply with the speed control given) confuses the hell out of them and often theyíll ask you to confirm your speed.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 12:46
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
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Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Nah they can definitely see what speed you have selected on the MCP. Hence why flying an approach with managed speed into Heathrow (as long as S and F speeds comply with the speed control given) confuses the hell out of them and often they’ll ask you to confirm your speed.
Then allow me to ask you the same question that I asked the previous poster (who subsequently decided that selected speed wasn't displayed, after all):

Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
Which BDS are you getting selected speed from ?
I can't find anything in the Mode S/EHS spec that has provision for MCP selected speed. While selected altitude has obvious benefits in providing potential early warning of a possible level bust, I'm struggling to see similar benefits for an approach controller who already has access to your IAS and, as noted above, will likely ask you what you're doing if you appear to be ignoring a speed instruction.

Can anybody provide a definitive reference to any recent changes to the Mode S/EHS spec that make this provision?
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 12:48
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Why are they asking you to confirm your speed then when you’re flying managed speed which, quite coincidentally, is the only time they ask you that question?
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 13:45
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
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Iím not at LL, but Mode S/ADS-B functionality is the same for everybody, I can confirm we(ATCOs) canít see your selected speed.
However, if youíre doing something different than preceding or succeeding traffic (even slightly different), it does stand out. So if they ask you to maintain 160, and you keep 165, that difference will be noticeable after a short while, if the others are doing 160 exactly.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 15:50
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KriVa View Post
Iím not at LL, but Mode S/ADS-B functionality is the same for everybody, I can confirm we (ATCOs) canít see your selected speed.
Thanks for the definitive response and explanation.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 19:50
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: United Kingdom
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Once had a 63 000kg payload on a B77W and needed to configure fully for landing with F30 at 4000' joining the GP to try and achieve the ATC speeds. - Not ideal.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 23:19
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
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Originally Posted by KriVa View Post
I’m not at LL, but Mode S/ADS-B functionality is the same for everybody, I can confirm we(ATCOs) can’t see your selected speed.
However, if you’re doing something different than preceding or succeeding traffic (even slightly different), it does stand out. So if they ask you to maintain 160, and you keep 165, that difference will be noticeable after a short while, if the others are doing 160 exactly.


And this is where the problem is, ATC expect us to fly exact speed of eg 160, but aircraft limitations due eg landing weight prohibit this to be done unless the big anchor is dropped down causing a lot of noise which no one wants.
Better would be a dialog with airlines, so that types unable to fly 160 at MLW are planned for at the appropriate speed they can fly without dropping the gear, eg 165...
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Old 15th Aug 2018, 19:24
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
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Originally Posted by TangoAlphad View Post
Happens elsewhere. LGW Atco's know we often want 170-5 as with the short field performance mod we almost always would need to drop gear and F15 for 160. Drop the request with director on checkin and we usually get it.
Dialogue with the airline(s) resulted in STN now requesting 165 to 4 instead of 160, enabling a certain 737 operator to keep the gear up till 4 miles with flaps 5/10.
In other airports that request 160 I'd usually ask if 16x is ok and usually they're happy.
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Old 16th Aug 2018, 05:34
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
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Heathrow ATC can only see actual IAS, not selected.

Heathrow AIP entry gives usual speeds to expect, including 160 to 4DME. If this is not acceptable, then as requested in the AIP please inform Director on first contact and we will accommodate a different speed on final.
Gonzo is offline  

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