Flight Directors off for stall practice in the simulator.
Turning FD off results in a speed mode independent of the FCU.
Beau_Peep
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I will also follow golden rule 'Use the appropriate level of automation at all times' and switch off FDs if they were on.
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This thread is ridiculous.
AIRCRAFT CONTROL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fiddling with flight guidance
It takes ... what, about 4 seconds? to say "FLIGHT DIRECTORS OFF" and for PM to then do it.
That's about four seconds more than pushing the column forward to start reducing the AOA. <------ (Remember that whole 'how to unstall an aircraft 1.01' thing)
Are some of you muppets going to sit there frozen, unable to reduce AOA until the flight guidance is removed?
Hand your licence in.
Are any of your colleagues going to do that? FAIL THEM, or feckin SHOOT them.
I don't care which, but they are too retarded to fly an aircraft.
AIRCRAFT CONTROL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fiddling with flight guidance
It takes ... what, about 4 seconds? to say "FLIGHT DIRECTORS OFF" and for PM to then do it.
That's about four seconds more than pushing the column forward to start reducing the AOA. <------ (Remember that whole 'how to unstall an aircraft 1.01' thing)
Are some of you muppets going to sit there frozen, unable to reduce AOA until the flight guidance is removed?
Hand your licence in.
Are any of your colleagues going to do that? FAIL THEM, or feckin SHOOT them.
I don't care which, but they are too retarded to fly an aircraft.
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It's easy to ask for FDs off and turn them off in normal sunny daily operations. But when the workload is significantly more than usual, I saw guys pressing the ILS p/b instead of the FDs p/b or only pressing one of them when I asked for Fds off. Or sometimes a simple task of challenge and response during landing checklist can be challenging and slower than normal.
So now imagine during a stall... xD.
I'm with Vilas and Cpt Pit Bull on that one. The waste of time for asking for something non standard in an upset situation that even a delay of a fraction of a second can be fatal is not a good idea. The priority is always to FLY first.
And 'FLY' means for the PM: ''He must assist the PF and must actively monitor flight parameters and call out any excessive deviation. The PM's role of actively monitoring is very important'
In a stall monitoring is much more important than playing with the FCU.
80% of the aircraft accidents are due to poor monitoring according to Air France.
So now imagine during a stall... xD.
I'm with Vilas and Cpt Pit Bull on that one. The waste of time for asking for something non standard in an upset situation that even a delay of a fraction of a second can be fatal is not a good idea. The priority is always to FLY first.
And 'FLY' means for the PM: ''He must assist the PF and must actively monitor flight parameters and call out any excessive deviation. The PM's role of actively monitoring is very important'
In a stall monitoring is much more important than playing with the FCU.
80% of the aircraft accidents are due to poor monitoring according to Air France.
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INDIGO
It is simple in the SIM to just bring THR LVRs to idle and stall, push the stick forward and recover. For all you know the aircraft hadn't stalled because present simulators are not representative of deep stall and you are not allowed to practice deep stall. So if you did nothing else it wouldn't matter. In Perpignan and AF 447(although self created) the stab had auto trimmed way up and to unstall it required to manually trim forward otherwise recovery was not possible. In another you may require to retract speed brakes or make wings level. These are all critical actions and they need to be done by memory instantly and the PM has to ensure you do or he has to remind you or do them himself. If you forget to switch off FDs it is not disastrous like forgetting the other things. In a hurry in TCAS I have seen people switching on the LS button instead off switching off FDs. FD on or off shouldn't paralyze anyone. Golden rule 1 fly the aircraft. You can't fly a stalled aircraft unless you unstall it. So first unstall it. Then fly it back to the flight path. It seems that all memory items have been removed from the QRH. But stall recovery is discussed in the FCTM and it doesn't say anything about FDs.
It is simple in the SIM to just bring THR LVRs to idle and stall, push the stick forward and recover. For all you know the aircraft hadn't stalled because present simulators are not representative of deep stall and you are not allowed to practice deep stall. So if you did nothing else it wouldn't matter. In Perpignan and AF 447(although self created) the stab had auto trimmed way up and to unstall it required to manually trim forward otherwise recovery was not possible. In another you may require to retract speed brakes or make wings level. These are all critical actions and they need to be done by memory instantly and the PM has to ensure you do or he has to remind you or do them himself. If you forget to switch off FDs it is not disastrous like forgetting the other things. In a hurry in TCAS I have seen people switching on the LS button instead off switching off FDs. FD on or off shouldn't paralyze anyone. Golden rule 1 fly the aircraft. You can't fly a stalled aircraft unless you unstall it. So first unstall it. Then fly it back to the flight path. It seems that all memory items have been removed from the QRH. But stall recovery is discussed in the FCTM and it doesn't say anything about FDs.
Last edited by vilas; 23rd Jun 2018 at 11:24.
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80% of the aircraft accidents are due to poor monitoring according to Air France
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Sure. But the point is that even if it’s a clown as PF, as long as the PM is doing his job properly, things should not go out of control. Eg like when the PF is doing a raw data approach, the PM must call out any deviations. If he does it accurately the PF will be aware and correct his mistakes immediately and always be stabilized. If PF does not react, PM should take control. Same case shall apply in a stall situation.
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It is simple in the SIM to just bring THR LVRs to idle and stall, push the stick forward and recover. For all you know the aircraft hadn't stalled because present simulators are not representative of deep stall and you are not allowed to practice deep stall. So if you did nothing else it wouldn't matter. In Perpignan and AF 447(although self created) the stab had auto trimmed way up and to unstall it required to manually trim forward otherwise recovery was not possible
Some operators, during type rating training where the syllabus requires approach to the stall recovery action, have replicated the events that led to that disaster. One of those events was the almost continuous back trimming of the stabiliser as the autopilot attempted to maintain the ILS glide slope after the thrust levers went to idle.
At stick shaker with an airspeed of (from memory) approximately Vref minus 25, the stab trim had wound back to about 12-14 degrees back trim instead of the usual seven degrees setting at landing configuration. In the simulator, when recovery at stick shaker is attempted in this situation, the pitch up at firewall thrust is really significant and can lead to a full power stall if not contained. This is because the forward elevator forces needed to contain the pitch up at full power, are so strong and need to be relieved by immediate forward stabiliser trim action which requires about 5-7 seconds of continuous nose down stabiliser trim. Care has to be taken not to over-trim of course; but five seconds of continuous forward trim should get you out of immediate trouble as by then the stab trim will be around 5-7 degrees as in a normal go-around situation.
. At the same time the pilot needs to carefully adjust the pitch angle to remain around 5-8 degrees nose up as a compromise between flying into the ground while trying to increase airspeed, and pitching too far up to prevent a secondary stall warning. Once Vref is reached, the flaps can be retracted to flap 15 as in a normal go-around and body angle adjusted as per normal go-around procedure. None of this assumes the aircraft is in a deep stall. if that happens at low altitude, all bets are off and the devil take the hindmost..
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At stick shaker with an airspeed of (from memory) approximately Vref minus 25, the stab trim had wound back to about 12-14 degrees back trim
Last edited by vilas; 24th Jun 2018 at 15:56.
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There's no easy straightforward answer here.
On one hand, the primary task is to fly the plane and put the nose down with no delay and no interference.
On the other hand, given the strength with which the propensity to follow the FD is burned into our brains, its remaining visible is enough of an interference to the primary task, as to matter. From my observations, I can confidently guess that I use the FD by far the least out of my airline of 2000 pilots, and even for me, whenever it stays up because the other guy is too busy answering a radio call or whatever to change the dial the appropriate settings into the panel, it is extremely difficult to ignore it. Fighting the urge to follow it is a significatn distraction to the flying task.
Of course, one way to (at least partially) resolve this contradiction is for the PF to use his own mouth and the PM's hands to turn off the FD, leaving his own hands available to fly the plane. But then (if the story is told accurately) he runs into an idiot instructor who has taken it upon himself to reinforce automation dependency by forcing its use in inappropriate situations. It has literally become a taboo to not have the FD visible as its lack evokes a gut discomfort. It's somehow better for these people for it to be up and displaying a wrong command, than for it to be hidden.
For those strongly putting forth the notion that the FD is to be ignored, well... if wishes were horses then beggars could ride. We saw how that ended up with AF447 and the +8000 fpm FD that popped up in the midst of their startle and confusion.
For every child of the magenta that has flown a flyable airplane into a well publicized crash, there are hordes of ones latently plodding along without incident in normal operations, ready to make the same mistake when operations stop being normal. The mental conditions are there, just waiting for a trigger.
On one hand, the primary task is to fly the plane and put the nose down with no delay and no interference.
On the other hand, given the strength with which the propensity to follow the FD is burned into our brains, its remaining visible is enough of an interference to the primary task, as to matter. From my observations, I can confidently guess that I use the FD by far the least out of my airline of 2000 pilots, and even for me, whenever it stays up because the other guy is too busy answering a radio call or whatever to change the dial the appropriate settings into the panel, it is extremely difficult to ignore it. Fighting the urge to follow it is a significatn distraction to the flying task.
Of course, one way to (at least partially) resolve this contradiction is for the PF to use his own mouth and the PM's hands to turn off the FD, leaving his own hands available to fly the plane. But then (if the story is told accurately) he runs into an idiot instructor who has taken it upon himself to reinforce automation dependency by forcing its use in inappropriate situations. It has literally become a taboo to not have the FD visible as its lack evokes a gut discomfort. It's somehow better for these people for it to be up and displaying a wrong command, than for it to be hidden.
For those strongly putting forth the notion that the FD is to be ignored, well... if wishes were horses then beggars could ride. We saw how that ended up with AF447 and the +8000 fpm FD that popped up in the midst of their startle and confusion.
For every child of the magenta that has flown a flyable airplane into a well publicized crash, there are hordes of ones latently plodding along without incident in normal operations, ready to make the same mistake when operations stop being normal. The mental conditions are there, just waiting for a trigger.
Last edited by Vessbot; 24th Jun 2018 at 17:19.
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Wow, a lot of discussion for a no-brainer imo. First fly.
stall (warning) --> nose down. Once the recovery is initiated, analyse your current state and continue the recovery (with or without F/D present).
Are you going to discuss as well if the airplane shouts "pull up, pull up"? Firewall and 20° up (on my aircraft), then think about the details.
stall (warning) --> nose down. Once the recovery is initiated, analyse your current state and continue the recovery (with or without F/D present).
Are you going to discuss as well if the airplane shouts "pull up, pull up"? Firewall and 20° up (on my aircraft), then think about the details.
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We saw how that ended up with AF447 and the +8000 fpm FD that popped up in the midst of their startle and confusion.
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My opinion (student pilot, currently PPL IR) is that the FDs should be used in order to improve accurracy.
I'm thinking I should bank 17° right and pitch 3.5° up, my FD tells me 18° right and 4° up, ok then, I'll follow it.
If it tells me 15° left, and if I'm sure of my 17° right, I will have no moral or ethics problem at all with shutting it off. Or even more shocking for my instructors, no problem at all flying opposite the FD. Even more so when the reason why the FD is not aligned with my idea is known. E.G I'm in heading or nav mode but I am willingly taking a turn for weather avoidance. In this case I know the FD directs me into an unwanted situation : **** it, I'll do what I know is better.
The fact that professional pilots would follow the FDs instruction without thinking twice, or even worse that instructors would train people to do so, frightens me.
I'm thinking I should bank 17° right and pitch 3.5° up, my FD tells me 18° right and 4° up, ok then, I'll follow it.
If it tells me 15° left, and if I'm sure of my 17° right, I will have no moral or ethics problem at all with shutting it off. Or even more shocking for my instructors, no problem at all flying opposite the FD. Even more so when the reason why the FD is not aligned with my idea is known. E.G I'm in heading or nav mode but I am willingly taking a turn for weather avoidance. In this case I know the FD directs me into an unwanted situation : **** it, I'll do what I know is better.
The fact that professional pilots would follow the FDs instruction without thinking twice, or even worse that instructors would train people to do so, frightens me.
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Even if they did realize it, that in no way prevents them from reacting to it the wrong way in the face of overwhelming urges (1. if in trouble, pull up, and 2. follow the FD)
If they did not, surely the FD commanding +8000 fpm would have acted as a contributor to their false information that is the basis of their failure to recognize it.
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Vessbot
I really gave a serious thought to avoiding reference to 447 because despite twenty thousand posts and a decade later it refuses to die. I only hope I already haven't done the damage.
I really gave a serious thought to avoiding reference to 447 because despite twenty thousand posts and a decade later it refuses to die. I only hope I already haven't done the damage.
