LHR Arrival speeds

[767-300ER]

It's been a while since i have been to LHR. The Jeppesen 10-1 pages give approach speeds instructions, 220kts to depart the hold, 180kts base leg, 180-160kts final approach and 160 to 4 DME.

On the arrival we were asked to slow to 180 kts. Then we were cleared to intercept the localizer and then follow the glide path. We started to slow towards 160kts. Heathrow Director then tells us to go back to 180kts. And then tells that 160 kts is fine as long as we get permission.

So can we follow the Jepp 10-1 pages advice or do we have to maintain speed until they give a lower speed or we ask for a lower speed?

Thanks

767

[Check Airman]

It says "expect the following speed restrictions to be enforced"

It goes on to say "adherence to speeds assigned by ATC is mandatory"

Further down it says to maintain the assigned speed when given further instructions.

note- never been to LHR

[DaveReidUK]

At the risk of stating the obvious, there is no way that LHR could achieve the current runway movement rate if arrivals were at liberty to pick their desired speed within a 20 knot range.

[Doug E Style]

Fly the speeds you are given by ATC. If you can’t, tell them in good time.

[wiggy]

Originally Posted by Doug E Style

Fly the speeds you are given by ATC. If you can’t, tell them in good time.

Yep, you do the speeds you are told, when told to do so, and tell ATC ASAP if you can’t comply

You can indeed expect to be given 220 off the hold (“leave Bovingdon heading xxx degrees 220 knots).

180 knots with the turn onto base...then at some point you’ll get told to reduce to “160 to 4 DME”...and FWIW the other gotcha now at LHR is with Time Based Separation ATC really do mean 160 IAS until you hit 4 DME...not before.

[FullWings]

If you let them know early enough (Director) they can plan for the speeds you need to fly. 170 to 5 is a common request for something like a 777-300, otherwise you need to throw the gear out way early (unless you like the sound of the config. warning). If you want to leave the hold clean >220kts let them know and it will be sorted.

I think the problems arise when someone does what is necessary for operating their a/c but hasn’t told anyone that today is a bit different. Annoying if you’re the guy that has to G/A because of that...

[DaveReidUK]

And bear in mind that, thanks to Mode S EHS, the LHR approach controllers will have as good a handle as yours, if not better, on your IAS.

[followthegreens]

There are a couple of very good videos that explain how Heathrow controllers manage separation dynamically on the NATS website (both Time Based Separation and Enhanced Time Based Separation). Gives you a pretty good idea of why strict adherence to ATC is crucial. And like DaveReidUK, they are watching

[Chris Scott]

Originally Posted by wiggy

[...]
...then at some point you’ll get told to reduce to “160 to 4 DME”...and FWIW the other gotcha now at LHR is with Time Based Separation ATC really do mean 160 IAS until you hit 4 DME...not before.

The next problem for ATC can arise inside 4 DME, particularly when there's a very strong headwind on the approach but a moderate one on the runway with, for example, an A320 following a B737/757. The Boeing will be flying purely on Vref plus an increment for the wind, whereas the A320 will be using GS MINI and is therefore likely to start catching it up.

[scifi]

Hi Wiggy, could you please translate this.... ''' ATC really do mean 160 IAS until you hit 4 DME...not before.''
into English grammar.
.

[FlightDetent]

I am quite certain: 160 all the way until D4.0 Not 4.7

[scifi]

Ok... I see what you mean...

[India Four Two]

followthegreens,

Thanks for the video link. Fascinating. Things have changed a lot since the last time I visited an approach control room!

I see that the system puts a dot on the extended centre line, to assist the Director in turning an aircraft onto the approach. Would it be feasible for the system to put a “Time to Turn” dot on the aircraft’s predicted track?

[roving]

She said: ‘I’m ex-Royal Air Force and some of the pilots that fly are ex-Royal Air Force so I know some of the pilots and if it’s quiet enough and I’m not busy they’ll say “hi Jules”. And just say hello. And some of the voices you recognise. But you can’t have conversations. You might just say “hello”, it’s as limited as that. We stick to our standard phraseology.’

If you fancy become an air traffic controller, Jules said they are currently hiring.

And there’s no ‘type’ that succeeds in the job.

She said that she’s worked with everyone from used car salesmen to electricians.

What’s more, really bright sparks can earn over £100,000 as an air traffic controller.

But if you can only work with a cigarette hanging out of your mouth, it’s not the job for you.

Jules will be featuring in an upcoming episode of Heathrow: Britain’s Busiest Airport, which airs on Wednesday nights at 8pm on ITV.

Inside the Heathrow Airport control tower in a picture exclusive Daily Mail Online

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by roving

Jules will be featuring in an upcoming episode of Heathrow: Britain’s Busiest Airport, which airs on Wednesday nights at 8pm on ITV.

Interesting, if somewhat ambiguous, statement in Episode 2 of HBBA this week that "Heathrow's 5 square miles accommodate the largest number of planes in Europe".

It wasn't clear whether that was measured by the number of movements (in which case it isn't true, AMS has more) or by the numbers of aircraft on the ground at any one time (which probably doesn't hold true either).

[FlightDetent]

Aeroplanes per square mile, that could well be true. AMS, as well as CDG or MAD, all have more significant foot-print.

pilots are to exercise caution in runway holding areas, as wingtip clearance is not assured.

[pineteam]

Originally Posted by Chris Scott

The next problem for ATC can arise inside 4 DME, particularly when there's a very strong headwind on the approach but a moderate one on the runway with, for example, an A320 following a B737/757. The Boeing will be flying purely on Vref plus an increment for the wind, whereas the A320 will be using GS MINI and is therefore likely to start catching it up.

That's so true. I had to use selected speed on a second approach until 1300 feet AAL the other day in Incheon as the ATC asked us twice nervously to reduce to minimum approach speed. They asked us to perform a missed approach just before as the leading traffic took too long to vacate the runway. On his defense we were only 2.5 miles behind when he touched down and strong wind. On the second approach, Our VAPP was as fast as 160kt+ on an A 321 cat D in Conf Full instead of 145kt and the leading traffic was a 737 just 3 miles ahead. If I did not select speed, it would probably have ended to another missed approach.

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by FlightDetent

Aeroplanes per square mile, that could well be true. AMS, as well as CDG or MAD, all have more significant foot-print.

Maybe, but there wasn't any mention of it being number of aircraft per unit area (which would be a pretty pointless metric, anyway).