The Windward Turn Theory

[Wizofoz]

Originally Posted by Brercrow

I have had a long correspondence with Wizofoz going back years

Denial is not a counter-argument.

Saying you understand something when everything you say shows you don't is not an affirmation.

Are all frames of reference equally valid?

[Ian W]

Originally Posted by Wizofoz

Ian,

You've made the same fundamental error- and you've been arrogant with it.

Before saying someone has forgotten basic physics, you'd best learn some yourself.

The earth is not a privileged frame of reference and no, no value HAS to be calculated in reference to it. All calculations of velocity, acceleration and therefore momentum and kinetic energy work in any frame of reference- as long as you STAY in one frame of reference.

Momentum is not related to groundspeed. It is related of whatever frame of reference you choose to calculate in.That is implicit in Newtons first law of motion,

If you read the post from A-Squared where he suggested I go to a friendly university physicist - taking about 4 sentences - you will see why I said what I did.

Momentum is not related to groundspeed. It is related of whatever frame of reference you choose to calculate in.That is implicit in Newtons first law of motion

I choose the ground as my frame of reference then. Aircraft stationary in my frame of reference and in 30 seconds accelerates to 120kts. Or alternately is traveling at 120Kts and in 30 seconds becomes stationary

[Vessbot]

Originally Posted by Brercrow

No No No You are talking about a person in an aircraft. The person walks toward the tail at 1 kt turns around and walks towards the nose at 1kt. But relative to the ground he is still moving with the aircraft

Scenario A (Cessna)
final groundspeed minus initial groundspeed
(airspeed + tailwind) - (airspeed - headwind)
(100+10)-(100-10)
110-90
20

Scenario B (Person inside airliner)
final groundspeed minus initial groundspeed
(airspeed + tailwind) - (airspeed - headwind)
or, if you like:
(walk + tailwind) - (walk - headwind)
(1+500)-(1-500)
501-(-499)
1000

You're not understanding the analogy. I thought I was clear enough in being excessively verbose and redundant in all the details. The airmass inside the moving airliner (scenario B) represents the airmass that is the steady, uniform wind the Cessna is flying in (scenario A)

The airspeed of the person walking (1 knot in scenario B) represents the airspeed of the Cessna (100 knots in scenario A). It's the speed of the person moving relative to the airmass inside the airliner. Like the speed of the Cessna relative to the airmass it's flying in.

The "airspeed" of the airliner in scenario B (500 knots) is not analogous to the airspeed of the Cessna (it's only a coincidence in the use of the same word.) It is analogous to the wind speed in scenario A (10 knots). It is the speed of the airmass over the ground.

Your rearranging of the terms is incorrect. Please look up and read it again, while keeping straight what is analogous to what. Line by line, term by term, I really don't know how to make it more explicit. Examine it again.

[Jet_Fan]

Originally Posted by Ian W

If you read the post from A-Squared where he suggested I go to a friendly university physicist - taking about 4 sentences - you will see why I said what I did.


I choose the ground as my frame of reference then. Aircraft stationary in my frame of reference and in 30 seconds accelerates to 120kts. Or alternately is traveling at 120Kts and in 30 seconds becomes stationary

All you're doing there is mixing frames of reference to get the answer YOU want, not an intelligent way to proceed.

[A Squared]

Originally Posted by Ian W

I choose the ground as my frame of reference then. Aircraft stationary in my frame of reference and in 30 seconds accelerates to 120kts. Or alternately is traveling at 120Kts and in 30 seconds becomes stationary

And what you're not grasping is that going from stationary to 120 knots is the identical change in velocity as going from 60 knots east to 60 knots west, and it requires the identical force exerted on the airplane by the air for the identical period of time, and both scenarios require overcoming the identical amount of inertia.

[Brercrow]

Vessbot you cannot be serious. Even if it is a cessna flying at 1kt in a 500 kt wind there is still no 1000 kt change of groundspeed

Read #201 again

[Vessbot]

Yes, there will be, for the reason explained by the math I posted.

What's the groundspeed before the turn? -499
What's the groundspeed after the turn? 501

The difference is 1000.

I read your post again, and it still rearranges the terms in error. Look at scenario A, and see that obviously everything is right. This is common sense to a private pilot. And then look at how every element translates to scenario B. Have I made any mistakes in the translations?

[Brercrow]

Originally Posted by A Squared

And what you're not grasping is that going from stationary to 120 knots is the identical change in velocity as going from 60 knots east to 60 knots west, and it requires the identical force exerted on the airplane by the air for the identical period of time, and both scenarios require overcoming the identical amount of inertia.

No not an identical force.
0 to 120 requires a tangential force
Making a 180 requires a centripetal force
In purely Newtonian terms force is force but for an aircraft, tangential and centripetal forces have quite different effects because it envolves rotating forces.

Ask a mathematician

[A Squared]

Originally Posted by Brercrow

No not an identical force.
0 to 120 requires a tangential force
Making a 180 requires a centripetal force
In purely Newtonian terms force is force but for an aircraft, tangential and centripetal forces have quite different effects because it envolves rotating forces.

Ask a mathematician

I'm speaking about the comparison between a 60 knot airplane in a 60 knot headwind doing a 180 degree turn, and the same airplane doing the same turn in still air.

[Jet_Fan]

Originally Posted by A Squared

And what you're not grasping is that going from stationary to 120 knots is the identical change in velocity as going from 60 knots east to 60 knots west, and it requires the identical force exerted on the airplane by the air for the identical period of time, and both scenarios require overcoming the identical amount of inertia.

Yeah, but he is choosing to go from 60kts (the airspeed) to 120kts downwing (the groundspeed) and claiming it's a much bigger change just because of the wind.

[A Squared]

Originally Posted by Vessbot

Yes, there will be, for the reason explained by the math I posted.

What's the groundspeed before the turn? -499
What's the groundspeed after the turn? 501

The difference is 1000.

Ummm, if a person in an airliner with a velocity of +500 knots is walking toward the tail at 1 knot, his groundspeed is +499 knots, not -499 knots

[Jet_Fan]

Originally Posted by Brercrow

No not an identical force.
0 to 120 requires a tangential force
Making a 180 requires a centripetal force
In purely Newtonian terms force is force but for an aircraft, tangential and centripetal forces have quite different effects because it envolves rotating forces.

Ask a mathematician

A steady wind has no aerodynamic effect on the aircraft.

Ask any physicist.

[Vessbot]

Originally Posted by A Squared

Ummm, if a person in an airliner with a velocity of +500 knots is walking toward the tail at 1 knot, his groundspeed is +499 knots, not -499 knots

He's moving backward. His (body) groundspeed could not be in the positive unless he's running toward the tail at greater than 500 knots.

What's a Cessna's groundspeed when flying at 50 knots airspeed into a 60 knot headwind? Come aawwn!

Again, we're talking about the speeds of the person not the airplane. The only way the airplane figures into this, is an enclosure of the 500 knot airmass.

[Jet_Fan]

Originally Posted by A Squared

Ummm, if a person in an airliner with a velocity of +500 knots is walking toward the tail at 1 knot, his groundspeed is +499 knots, not -499 knots

no, it's -499 because he is facing the tail. If he stops it goes back to -500. If he turns to face the cockpit while stationary it goes from -500 to +500 almost instantly.

[Jet_Fan]

Originally Posted by PDR1

Utter drivel. That would imply a 2hz rotation rate results in a 1000kn/sec linear acceleration - roughly 2,000m/sec^2 or 200G. Why is the person not squashed to a pulp by this acceleration?

PDR

Why do you think?

[Vessbot]

Originally Posted by PDR1

So you choose a ground-centric reference frame for the velocity vector, but a anthropomorphic reference frame for the maginitude?

Do you apply the same criticism to a Cessna flying on an East heading in an East-to-West wind?

I'll tell you the same thing I told Brercrow: Look at scenario A, and see that everything checks out, as should be common sense to a private pilot. Then see how every element translates to scenario B. I'll even paste it right in here so you don't have to scroll up. Have I made any mistakes in the translations?

Scenario A (Cessna)
final groundspeed minus initial groundspeed
(airspeed + tailwind) - (airspeed - headwind)
(100+10)-(100-10)
110-90
20

Scenario B (Person inside airliner)
final groundspeed minus initial groundspeed
(airspeed + tailwind) - (airspeed - headwind)
or, if you like:
(walk + tailwind) - (walk - headwind)
(1+500)-(1-500)
501-(-499)
1000

[Jet_Fan]

Originally Posted by PDR1

So you choose a ground-centric reference frame for the velocity vector, but a anthropomorphic reference frame for the maginitude?

You are out of your depth - stop digging.

PDR

It is simply HIS groundspeed measured from his frame of reference.

[A Squared]

Originally Posted by Vessbot

He's moving backward. His (body) groundspeed could not be in the positive unless he's running toward the tail at greater than 500 knots.

Originally Posted by Jet_Fan

no, it's -499 because he is facing the tail. If he stops it goes back to -500. If he turns to face the cockpit while stationary it goes from -500 to +500 almost instantly.

You're adopting a frame of reference which changes orientation with the person. The only way you can make sense of any of this is with a constant, non-accelerated frame of reference.

the airliner is flying East at 500 knots. the passenger is walking toward the tail at one knot, he is still moving East at 499 knots. He's not moving west merely because he's facing west.

While I obviously think Brecrow's theory is fallacy, I have to agree with him that the analogy the two if you are using here is just as flawed.

[Vessbot]

Originally Posted by A Squared

You're adopting a frame of reference which changes orientation with the person. The only way you can make sense of any of this is with a constant, non-accelerated frame of reference.

the airliner is flying East at 500 knots. the passenger is walking toward the tail at one knot, he is still moving East at 499 knots. He's not moving west merely because he's facing west.

While I obviously think Brecrow's theory is fallacy, I have to agree with him that the analogy the two if you are using here is just as flawed.

The airliner (= airmass container = wind) is flying WEST at 500 knots. The person is initially walking East (1 knot airspeed, -499 groundspeed) turning around to West (1 knot airspeed, 501 knots groundspeed).

[A Squared]

Originally Posted by Vessbot

The airlner is flying WEST at 500 knots.

OK, fine, the airliner is flying west, so west is the positive direction of our frame of reference. The velocity of the westbound airliner is +500 knots. The man is walking walking in the east direction , so that's -1 knot. a positive 500 knots, plus a negative 1 knot equals positive 499 knots, the man is still moving west at 499 knots. it doesn't become negative because of the direction he is facing.