Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Tech Log
Reload this Page >

Climb On Standard

Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

Climb On Standard

Old 29th Mar 2018, 03:53
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Earth
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Climb On Standard

In China, I have often, if not always, been instructed by ATC to “climb to xxx meters on standard” right after departure. I take it that I can set my altimeter setting to standard even before passing the transition altitude. Is this correct?
speedtrend is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2018, 13:30
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Here and there
Posts: 3,120
Received 19 Likes on 15 Posts
Any chance they are saying “non standard”, as in a non standard level (non hemispherical)?
AerocatS2A is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2018, 15:49
  #3 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Commuting not home
Age: 46
Posts: 4,324
Received 7 Likes on 6 Posts
AFAIK:

"Climb (to) Flight Level 80"
"Climb (to) 8 thousand meters standard"

are both correct and (only) proper phraseologies - for the same thing

In the metric world, the descriptor "standard" is affixed with the same meaning as "Flight Level" that we know (and like to omit) so well.

It is not an instruction to change altimeters, neither does it affect your company approved technique for doing so.
FlightDetent is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2018, 18:30
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: somewhere hot and sticky
Age: 44
Posts: 283
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Initially i thought they were saying "non standard", but no they are saying "on standard".

However they never use the term "flight level"... So i take it as meaning to climb to the cleared level and change the altimeter as normal at transition.

E.g. "climb 8400m on standard" means climb to flight level 8400m.

Of course there are also instances when they will clear you to a flight level below transition on arrival. Tianjin does this regularly, by transmitting "descend 3000m on standard"
Dupre is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2018, 19:23
  #5 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Commuting not home
Age: 46
Posts: 4,324
Received 7 Likes on 6 Posts
Because FLIGHT LEVEL is supposed to be used for levels in hecto-feet. Not for the metric ones.
FlightDetent is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2018, 21:44
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 954
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by speedtrend
I take it that I can set my altimeter setting to standard even before passing the transition altitude. Is this correct?
No, by the books you should not: Only Set standard when you pass the TA.
pineteam is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2018, 21:57
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: bkk
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Flight Detent: You might want to check your ICAO/Jeppesen standard phraseology.The correct expression is "Flight Level eight thousand four hundred meters".........Has been this way for a very long time.
piratepete is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2018, 22:00
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: B.F.E.
Posts: 228
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
3000 meters is the transition level, yes? It is very similar to in the USA “climb and maintain FL180”. That level and above are flown “on standard”. “maintain 3000 meters on standard” is no different than “maintain FL180”. If he had cleared you lower usually he would have said “descend to 900 meters on QNH 1011” or something similar.
hikoushi is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2018, 00:00
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by pineteam
No, by the books you should not: Only Set standard when you pass the TA.
Not quite. You are allowed to set standard once cleared to a flight level provided you are not asked to stop at or report passing an altitude.
LimaFoxTango is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2018, 03:33
  #10 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Commuting not home
Age: 46
Posts: 4,324
Received 7 Likes on 6 Posts
Originally Posted by piratepete
... check your ICAO/Jeppesen standard phraseology.
Warning appreciated!
Originally Posted by Doc 4444 PANS-ATM
Note.— If the level of an aircraft is reported in relation to standard pressure 1 013.2 hPa, the words “FLIGHT LEVEL” precede the level figures. If the level of the aircraft is reported in relation to QNH/QFE, the figures are followed by the word “METRES” or “FEET”, as appropriate.
It seems neither of us feel the guidance is adequate. You learned to add METERS to a flight level call, me to drop FLIGHT LEVEL and add STANDARD instead.

So, which one is it? Both incorrect?

I checked the 4444 Phraseologies chapter as well as Doc 9432 and couldn't find any metric examples, only imperial

Last edited by FlightDetent; 30th Mar 2018 at 04:03.
FlightDetent is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2018, 03:59
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 954
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by LimaFoxTango
Not quite. You are allowed to set standard once cleared to a flight level provided you are not asked to stop at or report passing an altitude.
I think you are confusing with the descend. Our SOPM and FCOM clearly state that Standard will be set at earliest « at transition altitude »and for the descend, QNH will be set when « clear to an altitude & approaching the TL ».
Besides, you don’t know if you will be asked to stop climb for any reasons.
Saying that I’m personally not to fussy about it. In my homebase, the TA is 9000 feet, and we are sometimes clear to FL110. If we don’t set standard early enough on a very light A319 we do sometimes get alt* before the TA.

Originally Posted by FlightDetent
So, which one is it? Both incorrect?
Like you, I often hear « Climb to 3900M on standard » or « Climb to flight level 3900M ». The word « to » is often intentionally ommited to avoid confusion when they use « on standard ».
I have no reference but I guess it’s just easier and less confusing to say « On standard » when it’s preceded by Meters.

Last edited by pineteam; 30th Mar 2018 at 04:14. Reason: Added sentence & typo
pineteam is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2018, 04:02
  #12 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Earth
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thanks all for the input
speedtrend is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2018, 04:11
  #13 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Commuting not home
Age: 46
Posts: 4,324
Received 7 Likes on 6 Posts
pinteam, he's not. In the "UK based" world of thought, they set STD immediately once clearance to a FL is received. It is not without a merit.

Personally I had been originally trained the way you explain, and it feels more natural to me. But the habit seems to be the only difference. For the last 3 years using their method, I had not been stopped in climb yet. In the descent, requiring re-set of the datum? Twice or thrice for sure.

(Just do not ask the boss if he wants you to set STD on the ground, when initial clearance is straight up to a FL )
FlightDetent is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2018, 04:20
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 954
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Hi FlightDetent,

Ok thanks, I did not know in the UK it works like this. My bad LimaFoxTango. But the FCOM from Airbus does not say anything about setting standard earlier than the TA. Only for the descend setting the QNH earlier than the TL is allowed; Thus my assumption it was a general rule. Again me I could not care less if the PF wants to set standard earlier. Lol.
pineteam is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2018, 05:01
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: bkk
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Flight Detent: The first sentence of your post explains it.Anytime your altitude is based upon standard setting of 29.92 inches/1013.2 hpa then it is expressed as a "flight level" irrespective of what follows is metric or imperial.You can find the explanation covering this in the Jeppesen Manuals.As is the case a lot of the time and all over the world, in practice many pilots/controllers dont always use correct phraseology over the radio, very common in China airspace where they largely omit the "flight level " part....Pete.
piratepete is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2018, 06:10
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Not over the Rockies anymore.
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
because they don't want you to be scared once levelling off...I don't want to fly at a Fright Lever 😛
act700 is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.