Concorde / NEO thermal de-bow
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Concorde / NEO thermal de-bow
Interested in the de-bow function of Concorde & similar - long shaft, variety of exotic alloys & fine tolerances for max perf meant a current (?) was applied to the shaft pre-start & post-cutoff to even the thermal gradients and stop the shaft bowing. The NEO now has a pre-start equalisation cycle for the same reasons.
Was Concorde the pioneer for needing de-bowing?
Was this a current or just a bleed spin-up?
Do any other powerplants do this today?
Was Concorde the pioneer for needing de-bowing?
Was this a current or just a bleed spin-up?
Do any other powerplants do this today?
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GE-Nx on B-748 do a 'bowed rotor" procedure if they have been run between 30 min and 6 hrs prior to start. Essentially, they motor to around 30% N2 (approx 30 seconds) before start. This reduces/eliminates the noticable vibration that had been felt prior to this procedure.
Bowed rotor is an issue on most current generation turbofan engines - it's just the severity that varies.
All HP rotors bow a bit after shutdown due to the differential cooling of the engine parts (i.e. heat rises). The exposure window varies a bit with different engines, but if you perform a re-start somewhere in the 30 minutes to 6 hours window after shutdown, the HP rotor will have some bow in it. Best case, you'll get higher than normal vibes during the start - worst case you can rub the compressor - possibly even damaging blades - and cause permanent performance loss. No first hand knowledge, but scuttlebutt is that the starting issues Pratt's having with their geared fan on the NEO and C-series are related to bowed rotor...
The first engine I was aware of with significant bowed rotor start issues was the GE90 - IIRC if you start a GE90 in the bowed rotor window, it'll max motor for ~20 seconds to let the HP rotor thermally stabilize a bit before fuel-ON. The problem got worse on the GEnx - there were instances on the GEnx where a bowed rotor start took chunks off of some compressor blades . During the bowed rotor window, the GEnx will motor for ~40 seconds - but it's not "max motoring' - that's too fast and still can cause damage. So on the 787 the electric starter reduces the torque to motor ~20-25 % N2. The pneumatic starter on the 747-8 can't do that so it holds the variable vanes open to keep the motoring N2 down.
The LEAP engine on the MAX will pulse the starter air valve open/closed/open to keep the motoring N2 in the desired range during a bowed rotor start.
The GE9X on the 777X has the most interesting solution - there will be a small electric motor on the gearbox (aka "the rotisserie") that will use aircraft power to slow turn the HP rotor after a shutdown to prevent bowed rotor from occurring.
All HP rotors bow a bit after shutdown due to the differential cooling of the engine parts (i.e. heat rises). The exposure window varies a bit with different engines, but if you perform a re-start somewhere in the 30 minutes to 6 hours window after shutdown, the HP rotor will have some bow in it. Best case, you'll get higher than normal vibes during the start - worst case you can rub the compressor - possibly even damaging blades - and cause permanent performance loss. No first hand knowledge, but scuttlebutt is that the starting issues Pratt's having with their geared fan on the NEO and C-series are related to bowed rotor...
The first engine I was aware of with significant bowed rotor start issues was the GE90 - IIRC if you start a GE90 in the bowed rotor window, it'll max motor for ~20 seconds to let the HP rotor thermally stabilize a bit before fuel-ON. The problem got worse on the GEnx - there were instances on the GEnx where a bowed rotor start took chunks off of some compressor blades . During the bowed rotor window, the GEnx will motor for ~40 seconds - but it's not "max motoring' - that's too fast and still can cause damage. So on the 787 the electric starter reduces the torque to motor ~20-25 % N2. The pneumatic starter on the 747-8 can't do that so it holds the variable vanes open to keep the motoring N2 down.
The LEAP engine on the MAX will pulse the starter air valve open/closed/open to keep the motoring N2 in the desired range during a bowed rotor start.
The GE9X on the 777X has the most interesting solution - there will be a small electric motor on the gearbox (aka "the rotisserie") that will use aircraft power to slow turn the HP rotor after a shutdown to prevent bowed rotor from occurring.
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Excellent answers. So it's still a feature & done pneumatically.
The Concorde's Olympus evolved from the Vulcan & TSR-2 - but was the Concorde the pioneer in de-bowing?
The Concorde's Olympus evolved from the Vulcan & TSR-2 - but was the Concorde the pioneer in de-bowing?
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Debow on Concorde was done differently to the above examples (as always!) insofar as it wasn't motored by the starter, but the engine was started then run in a sub-idle condition.
The gens wouldn't be online so you'd keep ground elex attached but didn't need ground air.
The gens wouldn't be online so you'd keep ground elex attached but didn't need ground air.
Probably missed this but how long was the debow run for ?
Was the 'signal' to go to normal idle based on an elapsed time or
engine vibration monitors falling below a certain value ?
Was the 'signal' to go to normal idle based on an elapsed time or
engine vibration monitors falling below a certain value ?
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Elapsed time: 1 minute (with a maximum of 3 mins).
IIRC, procedure required if previously shutdown for >10mins and <5hrs.
Edited to add that I've never flown an aeroplane where you used/trusted vibration monitors.
IIRC, procedure required if previously shutdown for >10mins and <5hrs.
Edited to add that I've never flown an aeroplane where you used/trusted vibration monitors.
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On the Do228 with those nasty little high-speed Garrets you often saw pilots grab a blade and fling it to spin the turbine - when the point of that exercise was to start movung the propellor tip very slowly - very slowly indeed while listening for the turbine scraping. If no scrapes then continue turning at whatever rate was suggested - I forget.
Difficult (impossible) procedure to achieve on a normal noisy apron!
Isn't it on the subsequent preflight rather than on shutdown