one engine out trap situation
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2016
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From: italy
one engine out trap situation
Hi guys..
You are in a SID which has an high climb gradient, in IMC, just passed the One Eng Out procedure track chance, and the engine fails, the airplane is heavy, and cannot comply the SID gradient, no radar control and no radar vectors option available, the MSA is not so low.
Turning back to rejoin the engine out track perhaps could not garantee obstacle clearance..
How do you manage the situation?
You are in a SID which has an high climb gradient, in IMC, just passed the One Eng Out procedure track chance, and the engine fails, the airplane is heavy, and cannot comply the SID gradient, no radar control and no radar vectors option available, the MSA is not so low.
Turning back to rejoin the engine out track perhaps could not garantee obstacle clearance..
How do you manage the situation?
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Delta of Venus
You don't. You're screwed. But look at it rationally, just how likely is that situation to occur?? The aircraft probably has a higher chance of being struck by a meteorite. There isn't an "out" for all potential situations, and it's what the subject of risk analysis/management is all about.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Blighty (Nth. Downs)
"Use your airmanship! What do you think you're being paid a small fortune for?" 
More realistically: to decide if you have a fighting chance we would need more information on the SID and the engine-out SID. How many seconds, miles or minutes from airborne is the emergency turn? Is there manoeuvering room to turn back? The late engine failure should mean you are above the profile at that point. How much further have you got to go to MSA? And so on...
Private jet is right. For example, think of the all-engines-failure situation.
More realistically: to decide if you have a fighting chance we would need more information on the SID and the engine-out SID. How many seconds, miles or minutes from airborne is the emergency turn? Is there manoeuvering room to turn back? The late engine failure should mean you are above the profile at that point. How much further have you got to go to MSA? And so on...
Private jet is right. For example, think of the all-engines-failure situation.
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 922
Likes: 2
From: australia
yeah you're screwed BUT on the assumption you'll do something rather than nothing seems to depend where you think the best "fat" may be:
- in the SID even though you cannot meet the requirement you MAY be able to miss the hills by 1 foot rather than hit them by 1 foot;
- the EFATO procedure, even though off the exact track the lateral margin built into the procedure.
Of course local knowledge may assist in any decision, if you're in IMC an interesting period until the point of impact (or hopefully not!)
Personally reckon I'd go second option, max thrust, best climb and no cleanup until MSA - hopefully then head to the hotel and write the report.
And like Sully - only a "couple of seconds" to make a decision that the armchair warriors can pick to pieces in the days and month afterwards!
Cheers.
- in the SID even though you cannot meet the requirement you MAY be able to miss the hills by 1 foot rather than hit them by 1 foot;
- the EFATO procedure, even though off the exact track the lateral margin built into the procedure.
Of course local knowledge may assist in any decision, if you're in IMC an interesting period until the point of impact (or hopefully not!)
Personally reckon I'd go second option, max thrust, best climb and no cleanup until MSA - hopefully then head to the hotel and write the report.
And like Sully - only a "couple of seconds" to make a decision that the armchair warriors can pick to pieces in the days and month afterwards!
Cheers.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 387
Likes: 5
From: Australia
This is exactly why reputable RPT operations will have an obstacle clearance procedure or OCP and a procedure to follow in the event that you've already commenced the turn on a SID. In any case it might well be different to the SID.
Unless conducting certain types of RNP approaches, it is also what you would follow in the event of a OEI go around from below the minima in IMC.
My current airline and the previous published both an OCP and a 'post procedure'
For example. EFATO from YSSY 34r, if you've already started the turn then track 090 and climb to the MSA. If you haven't yet stared the turn then track straight ahead till 10nm then turn right and track 090 climbing to the MSA.
It's written our TO card and checked during the pre flight.
In short, if one engine keeps going, then you've always got an option.
Unless conducting certain types of RNP approaches, it is also what you would follow in the event of a OEI go around from below the minima in IMC.
My current airline and the previous published both an OCP and a 'post procedure'
For example. EFATO from YSSY 34r, if you've already started the turn then track 090 and climb to the MSA. If you haven't yet stared the turn then track straight ahead till 10nm then turn right and track 090 climbing to the MSA.
It's written our TO card and checked during the pre flight.
In short, if one engine keeps going, then you've always got an option.
Joined: Dec 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
Remember, usually but not in the case of some airlines, the engine failure is "planned" to have occurred at Vef (just short of V1 depending the cert standard), so you should have built up some excess energy, either height or speed, preferably height. Any climb out if a mountainous airport should be, AEO, at something a bit above V2, say near V2+20 to ensure the most height gain.
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 922
Likes: 2
From: australia
I think too many are missing the question asked, maybe simplified:
- solid IMC
- sea level airport, MSA 5000ft within 25nm
- predicated SID and company EFATO procedure
- just after the commencement point of EFATO procedure THEN you lose an engine (being fair a simple failure).
Watch ya gonna do, decisions ya gonna make, Sully, in the next 15-30 seconds regards your tracking??
Bear in mind few companies - probably most - will not provide crew with anything more than an EFATO procedure and only that because the insurance (apologies, regulators - silly me!) require it.
Cheers.
- solid IMC
- sea level airport, MSA 5000ft within 25nm
- predicated SID and company EFATO procedure
- just after the commencement point of EFATO procedure THEN you lose an engine (being fair a simple failure).
Watch ya gonna do, decisions ya gonna make, Sully, in the next 15-30 seconds regards your tracking??
Bear in mind few companies - probably most - will not provide crew with anything more than an EFATO procedure and only that because the insurance (apologies, regulators - silly me!) require it.
Cheers.
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 930
Likes: 1
From: United Kingdom
Depends but. You should have been way above the climb gradient prior to the engine failure, so infact continuing the Sid would in most cases be safe. But being aware of where the high ground is paramount.
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 9,226
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From: Seat 1A
Originally Posted by Private Jet
There isn't an "out" for all potential situations, and it's what the subject of risk analysis/management is all about.
Willy hit the nail on the head. If you could get caught out as described, then your company should provide you with an escape plan.
GF and Icepack also raises a good point: depending on how far away from the airfield the first turn is, you will be well above the Engine out profile at that point so will have either excess speed to trade for height or if as GF suggests, you maintain V2 until you're in the clear.
Or... get a new SID designed. There must be others in your position.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 21
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From: italy
thanks very much guys, I felt like in a real and very exhaustive take-off briefing.. any of you has given me an interesting point of view.
I deeply agree with any of you who suggests to exit the trap using our airmanship which has always to be brought with us as our best resource in the cockpit..
I took note of any pilot's resources you mentioned useful to to plan the exit of the trick even before take-off, as...
observing the obstacle enviroment on the chart, check for MSA for a safe altitude, use the terrain mode on the NAV display, retard the clean-up, ecc..
but I'm also pointing to focus, with your help, on any technical tool which an airline navigation and performance staff can produce to make available more resources to their pilots for tuning the best strategy before take-off.
The problem arises, as I explained, when we have a diversion between the two track, our EFATO goes strait while the SID turns left at 400' AGL. In that situation, the cockpit has to make the best analisys as they can to reduce the potential screwed situation, which is rare but anyway possible, if you have already turned left for the SID passing for example 1.000'AGL with a discrete obstacle enviroment around. MSA is not even so high but is of course well higher. Where should i fly during while climbing to the MSA. My terrain is on but are you shure I can really face an ostacle avoidance using my MAP mode?.. Which is the turn radius I expect when I decide to avoid that ostacle to the right or to the left?
I resumed my doubts just to say that, any situation can be planned before take-off using the best of any consideration but, as many of you said, there can be some situations that cannot be solved and that can turns as like screwed ones.
so..
I'm aware that WE pilots have to face any risk and we are fair well paid and trained to do that. I can use my airmaship often even when I cook a good plate of spaghetti.. but..
If I'll take a good decision I will be probably clapped and sign some authographs to my fans but if I wrong it I will be asked why if I can still be alive to give my version to the court.
What I want to say is that our airlines can add much to have the situation much more comfortable for WE pilots. In this case we can ask for a deeper study of any critical airport we fly to give us someting more than saying..."if you have an engine fail at V1 fly to XXX and make an hold there".
I will assume any risk which is unprobable and absurd that could happen, I'm maybe able to face that in the best manner, but I would be glad to not be left alone and without any other resource than my sound decision making.
That doesn't mean that I don't want to take my responsabilities or that I don't thrust in my abilities but that if there is any chance to improve to solve or reduce my risky situation before I have to use my skills as the last and unique solution, than.. I SHOULD have!
This is not a complain.
As you have already understood, my company doesn't give any other tool to face an engine failure more than the the engine out procedure, described in our runway take-off tables, which guarantees for ostacle clearance as for the regulation but not more.
I know that some airlines has made deeper study then the EFATO at V1 considering more variable situations as the one I depicted so...
I'm looking for this kind of solutions.
Willy Nelson has reported that he has a "post procedure" and I'll be glad he could describe it's theory with more details, tnks..
Airbus addresses some suggestions to the airlines navigation performance teams which describe how to build-up a so called "DECISION POINT" along the take-off path which define the phisical point situated before the "DIVERSION POINT" where pilots can take the decision to continue flying the SID or the engine out flight track.
Boeing says that some airlines publish a so called "SID DEVIATION POINT"; when the engine fails on the SID before reaching this point, the pilots should rejoin the engine out flight track.
I don't have much more than rumors about the existence of those tools, do you have something more to describe about that?
My quality team is asking to our navigation & performance staff to build-up anyone of this tools so we'll assume and consider valuable any of your contribution.
I deeply agree with any of you who suggests to exit the trap using our airmanship which has always to be brought with us as our best resource in the cockpit..
I took note of any pilot's resources you mentioned useful to to plan the exit of the trick even before take-off, as...
observing the obstacle enviroment on the chart, check for MSA for a safe altitude, use the terrain mode on the NAV display, retard the clean-up, ecc..
but I'm also pointing to focus, with your help, on any technical tool which an airline navigation and performance staff can produce to make available more resources to their pilots for tuning the best strategy before take-off.
The problem arises, as I explained, when we have a diversion between the two track, our EFATO goes strait while the SID turns left at 400' AGL. In that situation, the cockpit has to make the best analisys as they can to reduce the potential screwed situation, which is rare but anyway possible, if you have already turned left for the SID passing for example 1.000'AGL with a discrete obstacle enviroment around. MSA is not even so high but is of course well higher. Where should i fly during while climbing to the MSA. My terrain is on but are you shure I can really face an ostacle avoidance using my MAP mode?.. Which is the turn radius I expect when I decide to avoid that ostacle to the right or to the left?
I resumed my doubts just to say that, any situation can be planned before take-off using the best of any consideration but, as many of you said, there can be some situations that cannot be solved and that can turns as like screwed ones.
so..
I'm aware that WE pilots have to face any risk and we are fair well paid and trained to do that. I can use my airmaship often even when I cook a good plate of spaghetti.. but..
If I'll take a good decision I will be probably clapped and sign some authographs to my fans but if I wrong it I will be asked why if I can still be alive to give my version to the court.
What I want to say is that our airlines can add much to have the situation much more comfortable for WE pilots. In this case we can ask for a deeper study of any critical airport we fly to give us someting more than saying..."if you have an engine fail at V1 fly to XXX and make an hold there".
I will assume any risk which is unprobable and absurd that could happen, I'm maybe able to face that in the best manner, but I would be glad to not be left alone and without any other resource than my sound decision making.
That doesn't mean that I don't want to take my responsabilities or that I don't thrust in my abilities but that if there is any chance to improve to solve or reduce my risky situation before I have to use my skills as the last and unique solution, than.. I SHOULD have!
This is not a complain.
As you have already understood, my company doesn't give any other tool to face an engine failure more than the the engine out procedure, described in our runway take-off tables, which guarantees for ostacle clearance as for the regulation but not more.
I know that some airlines has made deeper study then the EFATO at V1 considering more variable situations as the one I depicted so...
I'm looking for this kind of solutions.
Willy Nelson has reported that he has a "post procedure" and I'll be glad he could describe it's theory with more details, tnks..
Airbus addresses some suggestions to the airlines navigation performance teams which describe how to build-up a so called "DECISION POINT" along the take-off path which define the phisical point situated before the "DIVERSION POINT" where pilots can take the decision to continue flying the SID or the engine out flight track.
Boeing says that some airlines publish a so called "SID DEVIATION POINT"; when the engine fails on the SID before reaching this point, the pilots should rejoin the engine out flight track.
I don't have much more than rumors about the existence of those tools, do you have something more to describe about that?
My quality team is asking to our navigation & performance staff to build-up anyone of this tools so we'll assume and consider valuable any of your contribution.
Last edited by MAAZ; 8th January 2017 at 14:00.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
From: italy
I've red now about your post EcamSurpise..
can you please add more details about your company alternative strategy?
you mean that your company designs all the EOPs so you can rejoin them coming from any SID you are flying?.. just need 1.500' altitude..
uhm... sounds..
can you please add more details about your company alternative strategy?
you mean that your company designs all the EOPs so you can rejoin them coming from any SID you are flying?.. just need 1.500' altitude..
uhm... sounds..
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
From: italy
uhm... I'm not used with jeppesen..
can I find what you are telling me here, perhaps?
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/fssim/charts/LGKR.pdf
can I find what you are telling me here, perhaps?
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/fssim/charts/LGKR.pdf
Joined: Nov 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,150
Likes: 744
From: UK
Unless your departure is along a valley you should be able to turn away from the high/highest ground. This might be contrary to other traffic or airways etc, but you will be operating under a "Mayday" and your priority will be to clear terrain. Having done that you can then change your trousers and sort yourself out.
If your departure is along or into a valley, e.g. Chambery, Innsbruck, Geneva etc, then there will be special procedures to follow in the event of engine failure as described.
If your departure is along or into a valley, e.g. Chambery, Innsbruck, Geneva etc, then there will be special procedures to follow in the event of engine failure as described.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,205
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From: US
Sometimes the decision might be to turn TOWARDS the highest terrain, thereby giving yourself more maneuvering airspace if you need to turn back into the protected airspace behind you.
Sometimes little things matter -
Mountain flying 101 in low performance aircraft - get as close to the threat as possible and then turn away for a course reversal.
The slower the speed the smaller the turn radius(normal G loads).
Sometimes little things matter -
Mountain flying 101 in low performance aircraft - get as close to the threat as possible and then turn away for a course reversal.
The slower the speed the smaller the turn radius(normal G loads).