Rapid decompression
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Rapid decompression
Hello everybody, in my company there is some misunderstanding about commencing the emergency descend, some pilots are of the opinion that if we are cruising at 16000 feet and encounter rapid decompression then select open descend to reach 10000 feet whereas other pilots believe emergency descend is the correct procedure to reach to the legal height i.e 10000 feet
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IMHO in this scenario we all know what the rules say, and there is only one set of rules i.e. one size fits all, but..........."rules can be for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men."
You are in a territory where obeying the rules can always be defended. Whether it was absolutely necessary or 'the best thing' to do is a discussion. However, you do not know how you employer or XAA will react to not following the rules 100% and may not sympathise with your airmanship decision to deviate.
Always a difficult one, as suggested in your question.
You are in a territory where obeying the rules can always be defended. Whether it was absolutely necessary or 'the best thing' to do is a discussion. However, you do not know how you employer or XAA will react to not following the rules 100% and may not sympathise with your airmanship decision to deviate.
Always a difficult one, as suggested in your question.
If I read you correctly you are asking 'for such a small descent, can we avoid doing the whole emergency descent palaver?' Which is a perfectly reasonably question. The follow on question is 'if you're not going to do it at 16000', at what level would you do it? - 17000, 18000, 24000?' Where would be your cutoff/ limit and why?
Rgds
Rgds
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It is possible that being drilled about rapid decompression you may resort to EMER DES but even if you didn't as long as the initial action of donning the mask quickly is done the rest is not important and shouldn't raise eyebrows whichever way you do. The difference in EMER DES from normal OP DES is donning mask, extending speed brakes and increasing speed to VMO. At 16000ft. time to useful consciousness is 25mts. and the descent to 10000ft(6000ft) in OP DES it will take less than 3mts. If you extend speed brakes and wind up speed to VMO ALT* should engage in a minute.
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There has been an event where, due to screw up - naturally - the a/c ended up depressurised at FL130. The conditions were 'a/c was depressurised above 10,000' = emergency descent.' So they, in full robotic mode, did so. Discuss.
IMHO by the time all the pax had their O2 masks on etc. etc the a/c would have been at 10,000'. Also, by the time the crew did their memory items for Cabin Depressurisation, maintaining FL130, then thought about their screw up and then put an Emergency Descent into action, they could have been calmly at 10,000' or even realised their screw up and repressurised the a/c.
Not all situations are as Black & White as the QRH would have you believe. Sadly, genuine thinking is not encouraged, or even taught, until after the event the management scream at you "what were you thinking?. You did't have to blindly do the QRH."
IMHO by the time all the pax had their O2 masks on etc. etc the a/c would have been at 10,000'. Also, by the time the crew did their memory items for Cabin Depressurisation, maintaining FL130, then thought about their screw up and then put an Emergency Descent into action, they could have been calmly at 10,000' or even realised their screw up and repressurised the a/c.
Not all situations are as Black & White as the QRH would have you believe. Sadly, genuine thinking is not encouraged, or even taught, until after the event the management scream at you "what were you thinking?. You did't have to blindly do the QRH."
Only half a speed-brake
On my type the mask do not drop down automatically if not above FL140 cabin altitude. Part of the drill is to pres the MAN PAX OXY = ON, but then again only if CAB ALT is higher than FL140, for confirmation of the automatic deployment.
This value is chosen to satisfy regulatory requirements for PAX O2 supply.
Thread drift: do you use headsets with OXY mask on? In a recent SIM session I was advised not to do it, which surprised me to a great extent.
This value is chosen to satisfy regulatory requirements for PAX O2 supply.
Thread drift: do you use headsets with OXY mask on? In a recent SIM session I was advised not to do it, which surprised me to a great extent.
God help us, why can't you react appropriately to the situation you are in? Whatever happened to ^&*%$^&*(((!!!!!!
Oh sh!!t!!! I damn nearly said Airm*nsh!p!!!!!
What an utterly fatuous thread.
I thought this was the "Professional" pilot's rumour....etc????
Oh sh!!t!!! I damn nearly said Airm*nsh!p!!!!!
What an utterly fatuous thread.
I thought this was the "Professional" pilot's rumour....etc????
There will be little difference in time to 10,000ft from 16 and time of useful consciousness quite a while. Anyway, if the cabin reaches 14,000 before you get below, the masks will drop anyway. Over-reacting to emergencies can sometimes put you in a worse situation than you started off from!
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Loss of pressurisation with damage doesn't give you any time to act appropriately. That is why it is one of the few memory items in airbus. Although FL160 is no issue really if you acted instinctively to do EMER DES you are slightly better off because of the use of speed brake which you may not use in OP DES. But this experience should not make you waste time if it happens at 350 or higher. Airbus recommends use of headset because there are no earphones with the O2 masks and noise levels may be too high for safe loudspeakers use.
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Not giving an answer to the question in any way .. but, for side info, the certification standards require drop down masks for aircraft which cruise above F250. Below, things are a bit more step A, what did we miss ?, step B, step C and the descent can be a little more leisurely due to the better TOC .. not suggesting that one should dilly dally at all but there is rational time available, after going onto oxygen, to check for finger trouble and so forth.
Talking F160, I think, at levels in the mid-teens, one can invoke a little more deliberation than would be appropriate at F400 or so.
Keeping in mind that any emergency descent involves potential risks with other traffic.
Talking F160, I think, at levels in the mid-teens, one can invoke a little more deliberation than would be appropriate at F400 or so.
Keeping in mind that any emergency descent involves potential risks with other traffic.
Bear in mind, there have been cases, in the jet era, where bomb damage caused depressurization and the resultant emergency descent profile caused the fuselage to break up. a Vmo/Mmo descent is a stressful event for both the crew and the airframe.
The USAF story of a damaged C-141 comes to mind. It suffered a aft door failure damaging the tail and caused a near-explosive depressurization. The only pilot that remained conscious was a new LT in the right seat. He did nothing but reduce power and go down slowly at the current speed. Lockheed determined, as part of the investigation, that his (non) action saved everybody.
GF
The USAF story of a damaged C-141 comes to mind. It suffered a aft door failure damaging the tail and caused a near-explosive depressurization. The only pilot that remained conscious was a new LT in the right seat. He did nothing but reduce power and go down slowly at the current speed. Lockheed determined, as part of the investigation, that his (non) action saved everybody.
GF
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What I said was in connection with the original question to highlight how little the two suggested options differ. In EMER DES use of speed brake is a rule and in OP DES it is an exception, as required basis. I don't need to tell you when to use them?
Last edited by vilas; 10th Aug 2016 at 11:54.
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I see you edited your original post.
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On another note:. Selecting where to point the nose when starting the descent is actually something one should think about carefully. The way I was taught its spin and pull, spin and pull, pull. Don't think just do.
But how much to spin the heading, and in which direction? I was flying along one day when I realised that if we were to turn left and start a descent we would fly straight into reciprocal traffic on an adjacent airway. It's not always so black and white. Shame they don't teach this procedure in more nuanced way.
But how much to spin the heading, and in which direction? I was flying along one day when I realised that if we were to turn left and start a descent we would fly straight into reciprocal traffic on an adjacent airway. It's not always so black and white. Shame they don't teach this procedure in more nuanced way.
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I was taught its spin and pull, spin and pull, pull. Don't think just do.
When I first started reading this, after the sentence about pointing the nose and descent, I had scary imaginations of someone in a jet cockpit using lots of rudder and lots of back elevator and then experiencing lots of g. Silly boy. But I don't understand the 'pull' bit.
The direction of the HDG change is indeed something to consider. I used to teach the F/O, as PM, to beware of the captains who will always turn left. So there you are flying east along the Turkish coast with high MSA on the left and low level sea on the right. Hm? Beware.
When I first started reading this, after the sentence about pointing the nose and descent, I had scary imaginations of someone in a jet cockpit using lots of rudder and lots of back elevator and then experiencing lots of g. Silly boy. But I don't understand the 'pull' bit.
The direction of the HDG change is indeed something to consider. I used to teach the F/O, as PM, to beware of the captains who will always turn left. So there you are flying east along the Turkish coast with high MSA on the left and low level sea on the right. Hm? Beware.
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RAT, he's talking Airbus language. The pull bit is to activate the selected modes for descent, heading, and maintain speed (initially). Equivalent to getting out of VNAV/LNAV in other aircraft.
Airmann, I guess you're right on that "just turn-pull, don't think" bit. After all the main idea is getting the aircraft on the descent ASAP. You are supposed to refine your targets to a meaningful value on the "second loop".
The where to point the aircraft is a good judgement call, I reckon. Does that heading takes me to the closest suitable airport? Is the terrain high or low on that side? Was there traffic info on the side I'm turning?
We do take terrain into consideration in quite a high priority as we fly in a country with three very high mountain ranges (where the Andes end, mind you), so it makes it our first consideration as we will certainly end in a zone where the MORA is over 10000'
Airmann, I guess you're right on that "just turn-pull, don't think" bit. After all the main idea is getting the aircraft on the descent ASAP. You are supposed to refine your targets to a meaningful value on the "second loop".
The where to point the aircraft is a good judgement call, I reckon. Does that heading takes me to the closest suitable airport? Is the terrain high or low on that side? Was there traffic info on the side I'm turning?
We do take terrain into consideration in quite a high priority as we fly in a country with three very high mountain ranges (where the Andes end, mind you), so it makes it our first consideration as we will certainly end in a zone where the MORA is over 10000'