flaps or gear?
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flaps or gear?
Very simple question (I hope) ? On a Go-around what comes up first flaps or gear? Question specifically for a/c such as Boeing 737/757 etc. And is there any a/c that are specific exeptions to this. Work in the big metal shed and don't get out much!!
You bend 'em, we'll mend 'em!
You bend 'em, we'll mend 'em!
Controversial, moi?
SOP on the 757/767 in my company is Flaps 20 and gear up once positive rate of climb established.
I don't really mind if you have a stoush with someone based on what they have posted, but pre-emptive strikes are a little unfair!
I don't really mind if you have a stoush with someone based on what they have posted, but pre-emptive strikes are a little unfair!
Last edited by Checkboard; 14th Jun 2002 at 03:53.
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Yup, every aircraft manual I’ve seen is ‘bout the same. The idea of a go-around is to get it climbing (best way to do that is to add power and clean it up).
Not being the brightest star in the sky I came up with a mnemonic, to help me remember the procedure. PAFLAF (works with BE-1900, EMB-120, B-737, DC-10)
exempli gratia
P- Power (max - duh)
A- Airspeed (generally an additive to a ref speed, i.e. Vref + 15)
F- Flaps (retracted to your max allowable t/o position)
L- Landing gear (up on positive rate call)
A- Airspeed (increases due to configuration changes mentioned)
F- Flaps (again, this time retracted on climb-out schedule or all the way)
Yup, Fresca, On the 73 it be flap 15, max t/o or if OEI, it be flap 1.
Do there be some issues with 411A, M.Mouse?
[edited, 'cause JT brought up some good points, as usual]
Not being the brightest star in the sky I came up with a mnemonic, to help me remember the procedure. PAFLAF (works with BE-1900, EMB-120, B-737, DC-10)
exempli gratia
P- Power (max - duh)
A- Airspeed (generally an additive to a ref speed, i.e. Vref + 15)
F- Flaps (retracted to your max allowable t/o position)
L- Landing gear (up on positive rate call)
A- Airspeed (increases due to configuration changes mentioned)
F- Flaps (again, this time retracted on climb-out schedule or all the way)
Yup, Fresca, On the 73 it be flap 15, max t/o or if OEI, it be flap 1.
Do there be some issues with 411A, M.Mouse?
[edited, 'cause JT brought up some good points, as usual]
Last edited by '%MAC'; 14th Jun 2002 at 04:10.
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I think that there is a little more detail to be considered ... the sequence is landing configuration to missed approach configuration (considering landing and approach climb WAT matters .. especially for the OEI case or that possibility) and, subsequently through the clean up process.
We need to keep in mind that, while the aircraft is certificated for a missed approach with landing flap and wheels down for AEO .. the OEI case is only addressed for approach flap and wheels up. The actual numbers and flap position sequences will be Type specific.
The end result is not much different to what others have described above .. but the philosophy is.
We need to keep in mind that, while the aircraft is certificated for a missed approach with landing flap and wheels down for AEO .. the OEI case is only addressed for approach flap and wheels up. The actual numbers and flap position sequences will be Type specific.
The end result is not much different to what others have described above .. but the philosophy is.
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B737:
1. PF: Press TO/GA, call "Go-Around, Flaps 15", PNF: Monitor N1, position flap-lever, call "Flap 15 set", when indicated
2. Both pilots: Verify G/A attitude, mode annunciation, thrust set
3. PNF: Call "positive rate" when indicated by VSI and altimeter
4. PF: Call "Gear up"
....
1. PF: Press TO/GA, call "Go-Around, Flaps 15", PNF: Monitor N1, position flap-lever, call "Flap 15 set", when indicated
2. Both pilots: Verify G/A attitude, mode annunciation, thrust set
3. PNF: Call "positive rate" when indicated by VSI and altimeter
4. PF: Call "Gear up"
....
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On a late call for a go-around it's quite possible to touch down. I've done it. You need the gear for that, or it gets a little messy.
So I would be very dubious indeed of any SOP's that called for the gear to be raised on a go-around before establishing positive climb.
So I would be very dubious indeed of any SOP's that called for the gear to be raised on a go-around before establishing positive climb.
Excuse my ignorance
In John Tullamarines post above he mentions OEI and AEO?? Never heard of them before!
Please explain for less intelligent mortals.
WAT still Weight Alt Temp?
Hogg
I taut eng1170 just wanted a simple answer
Please explain for less intelligent mortals.
WAT still Weight Alt Temp?
Hogg
I taut eng1170 just wanted a simple answer
Last edited by Hogg; 14th Jun 2002 at 10:58.
"OEI" - One Engine Inop
"AEO" - All Engines Operating
I think it's almost universal in big jets for G/A
G/A thrust, F20 (for B747)
Rotate to G/A attitude and monitor speed
+ve RoC, gear up
Check/set missed appr altitude
Navigate the G/A track (LNav if you have it)
At cleanup alt, commence clean up
"AEO" - All Engines Operating
I think it's almost universal in big jets for G/A
G/A thrust, F20 (for B747)
Rotate to G/A attitude and monitor speed
+ve RoC, gear up
Check/set missed appr altitude
Navigate the G/A track (LNav if you have it)
At cleanup alt, commence clean up
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Whats all de fuss?
Lads lads , ive got it sussed, because I get very nervous on Go-Arounds, my technique is as follows:
250 knts to 6 miles, gear down boy do the paxs get a fright with the noise etc, then down the glide clean, with bout 75%N1, as i get to goaround, i firewall the thrust levers, haul the nose up to about 30 degrees, then just before i bust the goaround altitude which ive forgotten to set , raise the gear and really push hard over and at the same time slapping the levers closed.
works everytime but the skippers dont like it that much
250 knts to 6 miles, gear down boy do the paxs get a fright with the noise etc, then down the glide clean, with bout 75%N1, as i get to goaround, i firewall the thrust levers, haul the nose up to about 30 degrees, then just before i bust the goaround altitude which ive forgotten to set , raise the gear and really push hard over and at the same time slapping the levers closed.
works everytime but the skippers dont like it that much
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The WAT limits are the minimum airworthiness design standards climb gradients (1st, 2nd, 4th segment min gradients and 3rd segment capability, approach and landing overshoot minimum climb gradients) which are intended to give some small climb capability and which go into the takeoff and landing weight calculation process.
The gear horn will come on with flap beyond approach and gear not down as a warning for landing mis-configuration.
As Capt Stable notes, the risk of a temporary touchdown is very high for a low level missed approach ... those who are Cat 2/3 qualified will know all about this ....
The gear horn will come on with flap beyond approach and gear not down as a warning for landing mis-configuration.
As Capt Stable notes, the risk of a temporary touchdown is very high for a low level missed approach ... those who are Cat 2/3 qualified will know all about this ....
Last edited by john_tullamarine; 14th Jun 2002 at 11:44.
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Thanx for a nice selection of answers everyone! Was playing around on Flt Sim on PC and wasn't quite sure, but as Capt Stable points out the big bouncy bits with the round rubber thingy's do come in handy if it's a late G/A. I now fully understand the quadrant gates on the 73 at 1 and 15 units flap - thanx again all!
During go-arounds, most pilots don't push the throttles nearly as far forward as they (we) should.
And in some old Douglas jets, after "go-around power" is set, "flaps 15/20 etc" and "pos. rate" stated before "gear-up", don't forget to "disarm the spoilers".
Making a very short, boring p.a. to the passengers and cabin crew can help calm them help them understand that it is a normal (due to extra caution) and not an emergency maneuver.
"You want another approach checklist, just to be on the safe side?"
And in some old Douglas jets, after "go-around power" is set, "flaps 15/20 etc" and "pos. rate" stated before "gear-up", don't forget to "disarm the spoilers".
Making a very short, boring p.a. to the passengers and cabin crew can help calm them help them understand that it is a normal (due to extra caution) and not an emergency maneuver.
"You want another approach checklist, just to be on the safe side?"
Last edited by Ignition Override; 15th Jun 2002 at 06:58.
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Leading on from this... for any quad drivers out there. If you're 2 Engines out and past your committal point for the landing, and must go around, what sequence of actions would you execute?
Lancer
Lancer
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I suggest no different to the similar situation on one in a twin . . you land and do the best you can ... as the alternative to a much higher risk of dying ... especially if the two which are out are on the same side ....
One's commital point is just that ... else it would have been chosen to be lower the first time, surely ?
One's commital point is just that ... else it would have been chosen to be lower the first time, surely ?
Four engine drivers unlucky enought to have two engines out, and with no other complications , reduce weight to the two engine go-around performance weight if possibly (there is a table in the performance section of the FM) and approach with a reduced flap setting. Otherwise everything is pretty much similar.
, reduce weight to the two engine go-around performance weight if possibly (there is a table in the performance section of the FM) and approach with a reduced flap setting. Otherwise everything is pretty much similar.
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Valid points JT and Checkboard! 
Asked the question as I have seen both a 2-engine (quad) and single-engine (twin) go around executed beyond the stated committal height successfully... While I'm not suggesting that you would consider doing something like that normally, but if you absolutely had to, would you have any idea what you would do?
The way it was demonstrated was to apply GA power and continue descending. One demonstration even involved retracting the landing gear while continuing the descent to reduce the drag and allow for rotation without the speed bleeding... Is the answer just a case, of 'do-whatever-you-can'?
Lancer
Asked the question as I have seen both a 2-engine (quad) and single-engine (twin) go around executed beyond the stated committal height successfully... While I'm not suggesting that you would consider doing something like that normally, but if you absolutely had to, would you have any idea what you would do?
The way it was demonstrated was to apply GA power and continue descending. One demonstration even involved retracting the landing gear while continuing the descent to reduce the drag and allow for rotation without the speed bleeding... Is the answer just a case, of 'do-whatever-you-can'?
Lancer