Step climb departure best practices
Thread Starter
Step climb departure best practices
Hi,
I'm looking for some guidance on industry best practices for managing step climb SID profiles with particular reference to vertical mode selection and armed/pre-selected altitude.
As an example of a departure, either the CPT5X or CPT4Y. Here's a link to the UK AIP page on Rocket Route https://fly.rocketroute.com/plates/a...7607&icao=EGWU
CPT5X description:
Would it be acceptable practice to set 5000ft and if managing the vertical profile in VNAV or 3000ft as it's the first step altitude? If using VNAV, In my departure brief I'd discuss TEM points, in particular the potential risk of not capturing the first step and for both crew to be vigilant for this at the key points and to manage tasks appropriately to facilitate this.
Thanks in advance
I'm looking for some guidance on industry best practices for managing step climb SID profiles with particular reference to vertical mode selection and armed/pre-selected altitude.
As an example of a departure, either the CPT5X or CPT4Y. Here's a link to the UK AIP page on Rocket Route https://fly.rocketroute.com/plates/a...7607&icao=EGWU
CPT5X description:
Climb to 3000, passing 700 turn left and intcp OCK VOR R011, cross LONDON CTR bdry/OCK D18 at 3000;
cross WATFO at 4000, then left on Tr 293° (BNN VOR R113); cross BNN D4 at 5000, then left on BNN VOR R284, cross HEN NDB at 5000; then left on Tr 226° (CPT VOR R046) to CPT VOR.
cross WATFO at 4000, then left on Tr 293° (BNN VOR R113); cross BNN D4 at 5000, then left on BNN VOR R284, cross HEN NDB at 5000; then left on Tr 226° (CPT VOR R046) to CPT VOR.
Thanks in advance
Thread Starter
This post covers a lot of what I'm asking - the interaction with ATC and the selected alt.
http://www.pprune.org/questions/3439...-question.html
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/26664...ring-sids.html
Just to add, usual caveats about confirming the FMS legs and altitude restrictions apply. If it's relevant, the aircraft is not auto throttle equipped and vertical speed would be careful controlled.
The above thread is quite a few years old, and I'm wondering if the ensuing years experience has formed more concrete practices.
Thanks
http://www.pprune.org/questions/3439...-question.html
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/26664...ring-sids.html
Just to add, usual caveats about confirming the FMS legs and altitude restrictions apply. If it's relevant, the aircraft is not auto throttle equipped and vertical speed would be careful controlled.
The above thread is quite a few years old, and I'm wondering if the ensuing years experience has formed more concrete practices.
Thanks
Last edited by Journey Man; 26th May 2015 at 11:35.
I'm looking for some guidance on industry best practices for managing step climb SID profiles with particular reference to vertical mode selection and armed/pre-selected altitude.
If the procedure (SID/STAR) contains closely spaced altitude constraints it's acceptable to enter the terminating level/altitude in the MCP provided you've done a thorough check of the profile contained in the FMC and you ensure the vertical profile is flown in VNAV path.
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If "Climb via SID" is the clearance, we set the highest "cleared to" altitude in the MCP, and verify all intermediate altitudes are in the CDU. Climb mode is obviously VNAV (744). Often the restricting altitudes don't really affect us, so dialing in each of them in succession could cause more problems (e.g., ALTitude captured well before level-off).
Thread Starter
VNAV
Thanks for the feedback.
It seems that procedures are very much operator specific, plus dependent on the aircraft performance and interval between the various crossing altitudes of the step climb.
In the example of CPT5X, I had setup and briefed as described with the final altitude selected in the MCP. On handover from tower to departure we were instructed to "Stop climb A3000" and then reprimanded for having A5000 selected, and advised in future to select the first step altitude.
I think VNAV is a valuable tool in the right circumstances but it caused conflict in terms of the wider system, which was something I hadn't anticipated. At the end of the day, fitting seamlessly into the system is the goal!
It seems that procedures are very much operator specific, plus dependent on the aircraft performance and interval between the various crossing altitudes of the step climb.
In the example of CPT5X, I had setup and briefed as described with the final altitude selected in the MCP. On handover from tower to departure we were instructed to "Stop climb A3000" and then reprimanded for having A5000 selected, and advised in future to select the first step altitude.
I think VNAV is a valuable tool in the right circumstances but it caused conflict in terms of the wider system, which was something I hadn't anticipated. At the end of the day, fitting seamlessly into the system is the goal!
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Intruder
If "Climb via SID" is the clearance, we set the highest "cleared to" altitude in the MCP, and verify all intermediate altitudes are in the CDU.
Thanks for the input.
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I haven't heard a "caution Step Climb" clearance yet...
WHO reprimanded you for setting A5000? Was the 3000' limit properly set, and were you in VNAV? Had you busted the limit at D18?
WHO reprimanded you for setting A5000? Was the 3000' limit properly set, and were you in VNAV? Had you busted the limit at D18?
The problem is London ATC reads your altitude selection, so the controller cannot confirm you are minding the steps.
Intruder
A common clearance out of Luton on the Compton SID.
Intruder
A common clearance out of Luton on the Compton SID.
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Looks like a clear case of ATC getting into the pilots' business... It is NOT his job to question whether you are "minding the steps"! Since he cannot see the entire cockpit setup, he is totally UNQUALIFIED to make such a judgement!
WHERE in UK ATC regulations does it allow for a controller to "reprimand" a PIC for an MCP setting? While I might understand a controller QUESTIONING a setting IF a breach of clearance is imminent, a controller does NOT fly my airplane!
WHERE in UK ATC regulations does it allow for a controller to "reprimand" a PIC for an MCP setting? While I might understand a controller QUESTIONING a setting IF a breach of clearance is imminent, a controller does NOT fly my airplane!
Thread Starter
As a point to note, VS was restricted to about 2000fpm reducing to 1500fpm. We know we've got traffic above and don't want to be setting off TAs for guys above us.
I was a little confused why we were reprimanded, but my bigger concern is understanding whether this is a one off or whether VNAV managed climb to the final SID altitude is just going to cause conflict in the over all system. I was considering a CHIRP, but turned here first.
Fair enough ATC querying the setting, and warning of a step climb, I have no problem with ATC doing that.
OTOH if UK ATC start issuing reprimands when you're set up to be fully compliant with the SID/STAR restrictions using company/Boeing/Airbus etc approved procedures then that IMHO warrants an MOR to the authority, on the grounds of distraction, unwarranted interference with safe operation, blah, blah...this may well be a case where too much information at the controllers end is actually a dangerous and distracting thing
OTOH if UK ATC start issuing reprimands when you're set up to be fully compliant with the SID/STAR restrictions using company/Boeing/Airbus etc approved procedures then that IMHO warrants an MOR to the authority, on the grounds of distraction, unwarranted interference with safe operation, blah, blah...this may well be a case where too much information at the controllers end is actually a dangerous and distracting thing
I don't have access to the jeppy or aerad plate for the Compton 5X but can view the AIP.
In common with the WATFO and HEN altitude restictions, the specific altitude at the D18 boundary is a not-above, not-below restriction. Together with the notes on the plate warning of a step climb, I would certainly set 3000 on the MCP and not climb above unless specifically cleared by ATC. I would also have the 4000 and 5000 restrictons in the FMC to prevent level busts later in the SID.
Compare and contrast with a Clacton 8R from Stansted where the CLN D28 3000 altitude on the AIP is a not-below restriction whereas those at D21,16 & 13 are shown as not-above, not-below. I would therefore set 4000 on the MCP for departure, have it and the subsequent 5000 and 6000 restictions as hard altitudes in the FMC. Doing so, I have never had a word from ATC. It goes without saying that climb performance is not an issue and therefore being above 3000' at D28 is not a problem, but I would stop at 4000' unless cleared above.
It is therefore my understanding that a step-climb with the above type of restrictions does not allow a continuous climb to the highest altitude on the SID. The airspace around London is a bit complicated, with three major airports and plenty of GA traffic, so I can understand ATC's concern.
In common with the WATFO and HEN altitude restictions, the specific altitude at the D18 boundary is a not-above, not-below restriction. Together with the notes on the plate warning of a step climb, I would certainly set 3000 on the MCP and not climb above unless specifically cleared by ATC. I would also have the 4000 and 5000 restrictons in the FMC to prevent level busts later in the SID.
Compare and contrast with a Clacton 8R from Stansted where the CLN D28 3000 altitude on the AIP is a not-below restriction whereas those at D21,16 & 13 are shown as not-above, not-below. I would therefore set 4000 on the MCP for departure, have it and the subsequent 5000 and 6000 restictions as hard altitudes in the FMC. Doing so, I have never had a word from ATC. It goes without saying that climb performance is not an issue and therefore being above 3000' at D28 is not a problem, but I would stop at 4000' unless cleared above.
It is therefore my understanding that a step-climb with the above type of restrictions does not allow a continuous climb to the highest altitude on the SID. The airspace around London is a bit complicated, with three major airports and plenty of GA traffic, so I can understand ATC's concern.
Last edited by Mikehotel152; 8th Jun 2015 at 07:13.
I must admit I'm not a Stansted regular but I'd say the EGSS CLN 8R, as published by LIDO, with requirements to be:
"D28 CLN mnm 3000
D21 CLN at 4000
D16 CLN at 5000
D13 CLN at 6000"
Would, in my book, be an ideal candidate for the Boeing procedure, with 6000 set as the terminating altitude in the MCP...though maybe a clarification of "cleared climb via the SID" wouldn't be a bad idea (but a waste of R/T??).
Whilst I accept that London ATC seem to be mainly concerned with climbing level busts due to their airspace we all know there are some parts of the world where failing to step up promptly on a departure could potentially be dangerous or even terminal.
"D28 CLN mnm 3000
D21 CLN at 4000
D16 CLN at 5000
D13 CLN at 6000"
Would, in my book, be an ideal candidate for the Boeing procedure, with 6000 set as the terminating altitude in the MCP...though maybe a clarification of "cleared climb via the SID" wouldn't be a bad idea (but a waste of R/T??).
Whilst I accept that London ATC seem to be mainly concerned with climbing level busts due to their airspace we all know there are some parts of the world where failing to step up promptly on a departure could potentially be dangerous or even terminal.
Last edited by wiggy; 27th May 2015 at 08:36.
Thread Starter
‘Do not climb above SID levels until instructed by ATC'
Hi Mikehotel152, I agree that climb to the final altitude on the SID is only in compliance with the crossing altitudes. I stated fairly early on that altitude restrictions were confirmed and crosschecked in the FMS - as you'd expect - so with that caveat in place….
I looked at the CLN 8R SID (https://fly.rocketroute.com/plates/a...5913&icao=EGSS), and I came across AAIB Bulletin 2/2012 EW/C2011/03/05 which states:
I would now interpret this to mean that setting the first step altitude in the MCP, i.e. A4000 in the case of CLN8R, is appropriate. It infers ATC clearance is required for further climb. However, there is also a warning to ensure strict compliance with the specified altitudes in the SID. Let's take the case of a radio failure… on the CLN8R, established CLN R268 at D23 and A4000.
Appreciate all input
I looked at the CLN 8R SID (https://fly.rocketroute.com/plates/a...5913&icao=EGSS), and I came across AAIB Bulletin 2/2012 EW/C2011/03/05 which states:
Additionally, it is possible for pilots to misinterpret the instruction:
‘Do not climb above SID levels until instructed by ATC’
to mean that they must obtain positive ATC clearance to climb above all of the levels specified on a SID.
‘Do not climb above SID levels until instructed by ATC’
to mean that they must obtain positive ATC clearance to climb above all of the levels specified on a SID.
Appreciate all input
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I think it's been high profile due to number of airprox's in London airspace, the most significant I can think of recent AAIB 9/2010 EW/C2009/07/07; There's many comments regarding the SID and cleared altitudes. In summary the aircraft misheard his altitude clearance and climbed to 4000' instead of 3000'. The controller in your instance clearly had concern maybe a similar thing had happened, you say when you explained you were in VNAV that was enough to re-assure him/ her you knew what you were doing following the SID. From the AAIB report
‘Controllers must remain alert to the potential
for incorrect or unexpected interpretation of ATC
instructions by non-UK aircraft operators and
take appropriate action to ensure any required
separation.’
Personally, I can't see an issue in you being cleared for the SID with the associated altitudes included in that clearence, selecting the highest level associated with the VNAV proceedure which you have to do to follow the profile.
Flying in VS or FLC with ALT cap is higher workload and could result in delayed climbing in the step giving higher rates of climb and distractions which VNAV avoids.
I'm not sure but if you selected the altitidues as you passed them with your VNAV would your AP/FMC recapture or amend the VPATH?
It would be interesting to hear what a controller has to say, maybe post in thier section 'ATC issues' too?
‘Controllers must remain alert to the potential
for incorrect or unexpected interpretation of ATC
instructions by non-UK aircraft operators and
take appropriate action to ensure any required
separation.’
Personally, I can't see an issue in you being cleared for the SID with the associated altitudes included in that clearence, selecting the highest level associated with the VNAV proceedure which you have to do to follow the profile.
Flying in VS or FLC with ALT cap is higher workload and could result in delayed climbing in the step giving higher rates of climb and distractions which VNAV avoids.
I'm not sure but if you selected the altitidues as you passed them with your VNAV would your AP/FMC recapture or amend the VPATH?
It would be interesting to hear what a controller has to say, maybe post in thier section 'ATC issues' too?
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On the E190 which is fully VNAV capable we always and only set the cleared altitude on MCP.
As a regular on LCY (EGLC) and LHR (EGLL) we are familiar with the step restrictions in the London area. Strict adherence to cleared levels and if not clearead otherwise the steps on the SID takes you quickly close to other traffic.
As a general rule:
Set initial "CLEARED" altitude and subsequent "CLEARED" altitudes on MCP. This feeds the mode S repeater and ATC knows that you have set what you are cleared to.
If not cleared otherwise adhere to the intermediate steps.
The clearance: "CLIMB NOW TO FL110" implies cancellation of the steps - maybe someone can add the link to the AIP U.K.
Our policy and also IMHO the best way is to have the aircraft fly in VNAV but only set cleared altitudes on MCP. We (pilots) do not know why ATC restricts us further or clears us beyond SID steps.
As a regular on LCY (EGLC) and LHR (EGLL) we are familiar with the step restrictions in the London area. Strict adherence to cleared levels and if not clearead otherwise the steps on the SID takes you quickly close to other traffic.
As a general rule:
Set initial "CLEARED" altitude and subsequent "CLEARED" altitudes on MCP. This feeds the mode S repeater and ATC knows that you have set what you are cleared to.
If not cleared otherwise adhere to the intermediate steps.
The clearance: "CLIMB NOW TO FL110" implies cancellation of the steps - maybe someone can add the link to the AIP U.K.
Our policy and also IMHO the best way is to have the aircraft fly in VNAV but only set cleared altitudes on MCP. We (pilots) do not know why ATC restricts us further or clears us beyond SID steps.
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Step climb departure best practices
The danger with the Boeing procedure (setting the highest SID alt in the MCP) is if you are high perfomance due whatever reason, you might have to revert to VS mode to reduce your climb rate to below 1500ft/min, which might lead to a level bust.
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Always set lowest altitude constraint even if flying in VNAV on departure.
To avoid high rate of climb (possible TA)prior to altitude level off ,vnav may have to be exited and level constraint busted.
UK has had mode S 2 for a while and they will interrogate your MCP,your FMS cant be checked by ATC.
I was always taught to set first hard altitude but again i was taught in the UK.
The step climb is 3000 feet, a first step before the final sid altitude of 5000ft.
To avoid high rate of climb (possible TA)prior to altitude level off ,vnav may have to be exited and level constraint busted.
UK has had mode S 2 for a while and they will interrogate your MCP,your FMS cant be checked by ATC.
I was always taught to set first hard altitude but again i was taught in the UK.
The clearance we receive in this particular instance is "Cleared via CPT5X departure, caution step climb…" and part of your read back has to be "caution step climb" otherwise they reiterate - so I understand the clearance limit to be to A5000, as that's indicated on the plate and the clearance cautions us about the step climb. If it was a clearance to A3000 only, no step climb caution would be required. Maybe I've misinterpreted, but under the conditions of the clearance I would think setting the highest cleared altitude, as you state, is correct.
Last edited by de facto; 27th May 2015 at 13:04.