Airbus: Flying an ILS not in the database

[Airmann]

New airbus pilot here, and new to FMS operated aircraft. For landing we put a hell of a lot of info into the box for an approach, QNH, temp, winds, minima, G/A alts, not to mention properly sequencing to the correct airfield and approach.

Now suppose we arrive at an airfield for whatever reason and are forced into landing and it is not in the database and there is not enough time or info to build it using Pilot RWY. What do we do? how would the aircraft behave? I know that we can simply insert an ILS frequency and course into the RAD NAV page manually and work out approach speeds based on our current weight, but what about approach mode, what if the FMS has another airfield programmed in the box. Would the aircraft detect that we are not at the right airport? Would we have to switch off the GPWS warnings? Lots to consider, is there a procedure anywhere for this? Thanks

[ReverseFlight]

Program in secondary flight plan, then activate secondary.

[ShotOne]

Programme what in the secondary flight plan?

[JABBARA]

I understand you are asking a complex combination:
You are landing an airport not in database + You did not create the runway where you plan to land + Still initially planned runway/airport remains in MCDU Flight plan ?

But still no problem:
If you have hard tuned ILS FREQ and Course (as overwriting the previous one), still you can fly ILS perfectly, however in scratch pad you will get an amber message similar to ILS TUNED AND RUNWAY MISMATCH. Besides, LAND mode will not appear and A/P will disconnect around 400 RA to prevent AUTOLAND because computer cannot compare runway direction and ILS course, for ALIGNMENT mode engagement for AUTOLAND (transparent to pilot).

EGPWS has a different database, if the airport where you are landing is not in its database you will definitely get warning. If it is in its database that I am not sure.

[Airmann]

Ok but what about approach speed VAPP? What will happen when you arm approach mode given that you cannot fill out the approach PERF page as it is assuming that you are landing on a RWY you've selected in the FMS.

And what about GS mini. Is it enough that you enter ILS course in RAD NAV for it to work or must you have entered the data in the approach perf page?

[JABBARA]

The parameters what you have entered to PERF APP page, except minima, does not effect ILS approach itself. If MCDU landing airport elev is 1000 and , if you re now landing SL, of course you cannot enter MDA as 200, it will not be allowed. But vice versa no problem again.

Once you activate the approach, you do not need the make any weight calculation adjustments on MCDU because then FM comp will consider real time weight for Vls calculation. For PFD Vls, even no need to activate the approach because FE comp always calculate and display real time Vls (regardless of anything).

Even if you enter correct wind for now, to Perf page, GS mini function may not be working properly if direction of landing runway now and planned runway is quite different AND if the entered wind is strong enough so that 1/3 of HW component (as compared to landing runway now) > than 5 K.

For some hints, I recommend you to refer FCOM PRO-ABN Immediate VMC landing Diagram, you can find some details as I have tried above

If you rush everything and forgot a lot (including PERF P and activating App etc), fly final approach at a speed around Vls +5 at PFD ( with selected speed ) for Landing Conf.

Regards

[latetonite]

Do NOT know the specifics of your Airbus, but an Ils approach needs a frequency, a course, and minimums from your Jeppesen.
You can couple this to an A/P and A/T, just need a speed reference, probably in your QRH or equivalent.

[Denti]

Indeed, the QRH has a table that shows Vref speeds, and of course if one uses the airbus EFB tool the landing performance calculation shows the Vapp too.

[tubby linton]

Manually tune the ILS freq and set a front course on the RADnav page
-Fly Vls for the landing config plus approach correction in selected speed.
-DA bug can be set on standby altimeter or ISIS
-Use LOC mode plus FPA for guidance
-If the runway or airfield are not in the database you will have to set the landing elevation for cabin pressure manually

[sonicbum]

You will definitely need to disable the EPGWS (push TERRAIN P/B) as most likely the airport is not in the EGPWS database. But another question is : we are still going to get the basic mode 4 "too low terrain" as the system thinks we are landing in a field of corn ?
All of the above obviously in a scenario where, as the OP mentioned, no airport has been built at an earlier stage.

[No Fly Zone]

No Snark Intended

Most seriously, I intend no snarky stuff here.
This and similar issues are not rare with the AB system. Further, it troubles me greatly that highly skilled pilots do not know/are not taught how to turn OFF the AB (crap) and return flying control to THE PILOT, when necessary. AB and operator's training rarely covers more than routine operations between known points and in unusual circumstances one must simply guess - and perhaps pray, because you simply Do Not Know what 'It' will do. Again, with no snark intended, I'd suggest the following:
1. Encourage your operator/employer to buy the other brand.
2. When faced with a challenging situation:
3. When stable (if possible), then Turn OFF the automation.
4. Select the essential NAV functions as if the airplane was 25-40 years old, making the necessary weight, speed, descent and config calculations on your way down - just as as you learned in Piloting 101, then...
5. Land your airplane safely wherever necessary.

With automation OFF, that other brand IS and FLIES LIKE a real airplane. Doing so under AB's logic may (or may not) be possible. Sadly, knowing how to do so (aka: being in absolute control of your your airplane) was not part of your conversion training. Who is in command, you or an AB computer?

[Airmann]

OK, thanks for all the responses

Firstly, No Fly Zone, if I did that my airline would fire me. As a dedicated pilot I like nothing more than to do things myself, I don't like handing control over, I'm a control freak, whatever, I think most pilots are, but the airline decides at the end of the day.

To summarize what people have said:

1. Insert ILS freq. plus Course in RAD NAV
2. Activate APRCH Phase, regardless of which Airport + Approach is set in the box, insert the minima in the box
3. As per airbus logic all speeds displayed on PFD are based on real time weights using FAC, so technically one can fly managed speeds and have the aircraft decelerate correctly? Is that the case? Little confused about this, some say that one must decelerate using selected speed, including setting final apprch spead manually?
4. At some stage in the approach RWY/ILS Mismatch warning will appear on MCDU scratch pad.

However, aircraft should intercept ILS as normal and fly all the way down, the questions which still remain are these:

1. JABARRA you said that LAND green will not appear and AP will disconnect at 400ft. I don't really see why. You have a valid ILS beam, all the equipment at the airport is working fine. LAND mode simply means that the FMS is now locked onto the beam and no manipulation of the FCU will disengage it other than a G/A. So why should you not get LAND? And technically why can't one continue for an autoland? I would need to look into the books more closely but speaking off the top of my head; so long as the LOC and GS signals are valid and the RA works whats to stop a Autoland? What more does the aircraft need?
2. Regarding a G/A. Obviously there will be no lateral flight plan so if one was to do a G/A the questions are
a) would G/A mode activate?
b) would the THR RED and ACCEL be what was set is the PERF G/A page for the approach in the box (which isn't the one that is being flown)

Thanks

[tubby linton]

I think that the secret to this is keep it simple and fly it like a Boeing.
Pressing the Appr pb will not work as the guidance doesn't know what approach you want to fly as you have not entered it in the flight plan.
I would fly selected speed as the ground speed mini will not be working correctly due to the incorrect headwind component.. This is why when circling we put the landing runway in the secondary and activate it as you break off the instrument approach.
Go-around will be available and I imagine that the THR Red and Accel (which are modifiable) will be what is in the box.
If it doesn't work select 250kt and pull Open climb and reduce to climb power at the thr red/accel alt

[ShotOne]

"Encourage your employer to buy the other brand" ..Thank you for your help, No fly. There isn't one part of your post that ISN'T "snarky stuff. What a waste of pixels

Tubby, why LOC and FPA. Why wouldn't You get a glide slope ?

[tubby linton]

The Appr button is pressed for two reasons-
The first is to get it to capture the glideslope of an ILS.
The second is for the non- precision approach to get it to descend on the procedure. The only way the kit knows which approach it is flying is through the approach selection in the fmgc.
If you have not selected an approach through the fmgc then it doesn't know what it is meant to do, hence it will not engage . Having tuned an ILS the aircraft will display the LOC and GS normally.
The Loc pb will allow tracking of the localizer and you can select an Fpa to follow the glideslope or use vertical speed..This is only if you want to use an autopilot and some sort of guidance. You could always handfly a raw data ILS . (Heavens forbid!)

[latetonite]

If all fails, fly the loc and GS manual. You are instrument rated, no?

[vilas]

tubby
There seems to be a confusion about APP mode engagement. Even mere tuning of ILS frequency is considered as selection of an ILS approach. So APP mode will engage, in all aspects LAND mode etc., no need to use LOC and TRK/FPA. See below from FCOM:

SELECTION

The ILS approach is selected when the APPR pb of the FCU is pressed and:
‐ An ILS approach or a runway only or no approach is inserted in the Flight Management flight plan (ARRIVAL page), and an ILS frequency is set in on the MCDU, or
‐ Both radio management panels are set to NAV and each one has the ILS frequency and course set in.
Also GS mini has nothing to do with any runway, once you have surface wind in the PERF and approach activated GS mini is active anywhere even on down wind should winds change drastically.

[sonicbum]

Thanks for the clarification vilas.

[vilas]

Airmann
I guess you want to know how to fly an airbus without any knowledge of the aircraft. Yes you can do that by simply tuning ILS frequency and course and fly everything selected HDG select, Speed select, manual thrust and fly raw data ILS, the VLS is V approach without auto thrust. It is as simple as that provided you have the skill. Raw data is easier in Airbus since it holds it's flight path. If you can't do it in the bus you won't be doing it in Boeing either. Approach mode is a flight director mode you need to know how to programme it. Next if you don't have the approach in data base how will it be in the FMGS? I have my doubts if you are type rated.

[vilas]

What is the big deal about Vapp? Landing weight+70 is your VLS. Add 5KTS if using ATHR.