INSIDE AN ENGINE;
Fleet Manager
Joined: Apr 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 7,448
Likes: 310
From: various places .....
I wouldn't fuss too much about the bonus .. X% of zero doesn't add up to much.
On the face of it, probably not much ...
Consider, though, that the older, experienced, professional aviator may have a responsibility to assist those coming along behind ? Did not you have the benefit of wiser heads when you were a new chum ?
Not to mention that these threads often bring out of the closet videos and other items which may well be of interest to a wider audience ?
On the face of it, probably not much ...
Consider, though, that the older, experienced, professional aviator may have a responsibility to assist those coming along behind ? Did not you have the benefit of wiser heads when you were a new chum ?
Not to mention that these threads often bring out of the closet videos and other items which may well be of interest to a wider audience ?
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 470
Likes: 0
From: Oxfordshire
Great vid Sidestick n Rudder, not seen that one before.
BOAC. You are not compelled to reply to any thread on PPRUNE, so if the OP's credentials offend you please feel free to move on and let those of us who enjoy passing our knowledge and encouragement on do so.
I'm in the engineering design side of aviation, and our industry is desperate for staff. The more we can get interested the better!
BOAC. You are not compelled to reply to any thread on PPRUNE, so if the OP's credentials offend you please feel free to move on and let those of us who enjoy passing our knowledge and encouragement on do so.
I'm in the engineering design side of aviation, and our industry is desperate for staff. The more we can get interested the better!
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 185
Likes: 0
From: Paris, France
Ok,ok... There is a big problem. I am not at all an airline pilot, just 13 year old, and I really didn't check my profile, just clicked "yes" everywhere. My native language is french, but I am learning english. I AM NOT A PILOT!
Last question: So BLEED AIR is taken from high pressure stage or low pressure stage, depending on what we need...
But has the APU BLEED already got that air? Because at the beginning of the thread, the apu bleed air turned a box to turn the compressor, so does the APU BLEED AIR get's compressed twice, or does it come as normal air and then get's compressed?
Last question: So BLEED AIR is taken from high pressure stage or low pressure stage, depending on what we need...
But has the APU BLEED already got that air? Because at the beginning of the thread, the apu bleed air turned a box to turn the compressor, so does the APU BLEED AIR get's compressed twice, or does it come as normal air and then get's compressed?
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 946
Likes: 445
From: Austria
It might help You to consider the APU a little jet engine (which it is). Just like its bigger relatives, it has a compressor (usually single-stage radial) that feeds a combustion chamber, which in turn discharges into a turbine (usually single-stage radial as well).
The bleed air is tapped from the APU compressor, diverting some air that would otherwise go to the combustion chamber into the bleed air ducting - plain old pipes basically. And these pipes will lead the APU bleed air into the engine starter: as has been explained, this is a little turbine installed on the accessory gear box that will spin the high pressure compressor of the engine. After having passed the starter turbine, the air will typically just be vented overboard.
What You need is a book on jet engine theory. I am sure that a search on common book dealer pages will return several titles in French as well, should You prefer that language.
The bleed air is tapped from the APU compressor, diverting some air that would otherwise go to the combustion chamber into the bleed air ducting - plain old pipes basically. And these pipes will lead the APU bleed air into the engine starter: as has been explained, this is a little turbine installed on the accessory gear box that will spin the high pressure compressor of the engine. After having passed the starter turbine, the air will typically just be vented overboard.
What You need is a book on jet engine theory. I am sure that a search on common book dealer pages will return several titles in French as well, should You prefer that language.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,569
Likes: 1
From: Florida
Last question: So BLEED AIR is taken from high pressure stage or low pressure stage, depending on what we need...
But has the APU BLEED already got that air
But has the APU BLEED already got that air
The big engine has no bleed air available during start and no direct connection exist in the air between either the APU (small), plus the starter (tiny) and the big engine.
A neat little schematic might focus your mind on this rather than more words
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 660
Likes: 20
From: England
BOAC
You appear to have something of a fixation on putting down posters who are not professional aviators.
Your profile states the following:
Licence Type (eg CPL. Pilots only)
Atpl
Biography
Now retired
Location
UK
Occupation
Sit Vac
If these details are accurate then you are no longer a professional aviator.
You are an EX professional aviator.
As such it might be more appropriate if you were to restrict your posts to those threads that are for EX professional aviators.
As JT has intimated, chasing enthusiastic youngsters (some of whom will become tomorrows professional aviators) into the far corners of pprune, will reduce the chances of them getting the information that they are looking for. In some cases this will drive them away from aviation.
You appear to have something of a fixation on putting down posters who are not professional aviators.
Your profile states the following:
Licence Type (eg CPL. Pilots only)
Atpl
Biography
Now retired
Location
UK
Occupation
Sit Vac
If these details are accurate then you are no longer a professional aviator.
You are an EX professional aviator.
As such it might be more appropriate if you were to restrict your posts to those threads that are for EX professional aviators.
As JT has intimated, chasing enthusiastic youngsters (some of whom will become tomorrows professional aviators) into the far corners of pprune, will reduce the chances of them getting the information that they are looking for. In some cases this will drive them away from aviation.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 185
Likes: 0
From: Paris, France
"Both the engine (the big one) you want to start and the APU (small guy) have compressors and bleed air. Since the APU is running it has air to spare. As said before it uses this air to spin a much smaller device (the starter) which through gears turns the big engine.
The big engine has no bleed air available during start and no direct connection exist in the air between either the APU (small), plus the starter (tiny) and the big engine.
A neat little schematic might focus your mind on this rather than more words"
Thanks,
But so this is the route of APU BLEED:
APU has it's compressor, combuster. So basically, at the end it will turn a gear which will turn the turbine (so the big fan and the big compressor and the axe, am I right?
"BOAC
You appear to have something of a fixation on putting down posters who are not professional aviators.
Your profile states the following:
Licence Type (eg CPL. Pilots only)
Atpl
Biography
Now retired
Location
UK
Occupation
Sit Vac
If these details are accurate then you are no longer a professional aviator.
You are an EX professional aviator.
As such it might be more appropriate if you were to restrict your posts to those threads that are for EX professional aviators.
As JT has intimated, chasing enthusiastic youngsters (some of whom will become tomorrows professional aviators) into the far corners of pprune, will reduce the chances of them getting the information that they are looking for. In some cases this will drive them away from aviation."
Thanks keith williams, I appreciate, I really didn't want to write that I was a pilot!
The big engine has no bleed air available during start and no direct connection exist in the air between either the APU (small), plus the starter (tiny) and the big engine.
A neat little schematic might focus your mind on this rather than more words"
Thanks,
But so this is the route of APU BLEED:
APU has it's compressor, combuster. So basically, at the end it will turn a gear which will turn the turbine (so the big fan and the big compressor and the axe, am I right?
"BOAC
You appear to have something of a fixation on putting down posters who are not professional aviators.
Your profile states the following:
Licence Type (eg CPL. Pilots only)
Atpl
Biography
Now retired
Location
UK
Occupation
Sit Vac
If these details are accurate then you are no longer a professional aviator.
You are an EX professional aviator.
As such it might be more appropriate if you were to restrict your posts to those threads that are for EX professional aviators.
As JT has intimated, chasing enthusiastic youngsters (some of whom will become tomorrows professional aviators) into the far corners of pprune, will reduce the chances of them getting the information that they are looking for. In some cases this will drive them away from aviation."
Thanks keith williams, I appreciate, I really didn't want to write that I was a pilot!
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,165
Likes: 0
From: Middle America
AF330,
I've been watching this thread and I am glad to see some posters are attempting to help you with the technical question you have asked. Just ignore some of the old posting dinosaurs, who have nothing to contribute in response to your question. Here is another source of information that could be helpful to you and it is in French.
Keep asking questions, it is the way to learn
Groupe auxiliaire de puissance ? Wikipédia
I've been watching this thread and I am glad to see some posters are attempting to help you with the technical question you have asked. Just ignore some of the old posting dinosaurs, who have nothing to contribute in response to your question. Here is another source of information that could be helpful to you and it is in French.
Keep asking questions, it is the way to learn
Groupe auxiliaire de puissance ? Wikipédia
Joined: Mar 2005
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 6,563
Likes: 953
From: Aus
The OP might like to work his/her way through these.
Engines
http://www.scribd.com/doc/51618999/R...ngine#page=217
Engines
http://www.scribd.com/doc/51618999/R...ngine#page=217
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,569
Likes: 1
From: Florida
I'm sorry to see this thread getting personal.
Sure, all opinions are valid, but lets' keep it simple.
Many OPs are confusing for a variety of reasons. Maybe the answers should be simplified down to communicating with the large numbers who read this forum rather than trying to personalize the posters.
Sure, all opinions are valid, but lets' keep it simple.
Many OPs are confusing for a variety of reasons. Maybe the answers should be simplified down to communicating with the large numbers who read this forum rather than trying to personalize the posters.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 185
Likes: 0
From: Paris, France
Well, see BOAC, I really didn't "lie", It was just an error. I really wanted to post my first question (about SELCAL I think...) and I pressed "YES- CONFIRM". If I really wanted to lie, I would not show "13" as my age.
I hope you understand. I am sorry if you didn't appreciate it. Again, sorry...
Thanks to everyone to have helped me!
I hope you understand. I am sorry if you didn't appreciate it. Again, sorry...
Thanks to everyone to have helped me!
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,165
Likes: 0
From: Middle America
Hi AF330,
I thought maybe a couple of engine cutaways might help you to visualize the location of the starter in a large fan engine.
Just at the rear of the accessory drive section is the starter. In the next cutaway, you will see how that connects to the main engine rotor shaft to turn it beginning the process of engine starting.
Now you can see the starter and the shaft that goes from the starter upward to the engine rotor shaft. Note the gear at the end of the starter shaft meshes with a gear that is attached to the main engine shaft. So, as the power coming from the APU in the tail of the aircraft energizes the starter to start turning the main engine shaft, rotational speed of the engine rotors will increase. At a certain rotational speed, fuel will be sprayed into the combustor and ignited. As rotor speeds continue to increase the starter is disengaged and the engine becomes self sufficient with no need for external support. In case you are wondering, the depicted engine is the GE CF6-50 that was used to power the A-300, Boeing 747 and also, the DC-10.
Hope this really helps you.
I thought maybe a couple of engine cutaways might help you to visualize the location of the starter in a large fan engine.
Just at the rear of the accessory drive section is the starter. In the next cutaway, you will see how that connects to the main engine rotor shaft to turn it beginning the process of engine starting.
Now you can see the starter and the shaft that goes from the starter upward to the engine rotor shaft. Note the gear at the end of the starter shaft meshes with a gear that is attached to the main engine shaft. So, as the power coming from the APU in the tail of the aircraft energizes the starter to start turning the main engine shaft, rotational speed of the engine rotors will increase. At a certain rotational speed, fuel will be sprayed into the combustor and ignited. As rotor speeds continue to increase the starter is disengaged and the engine becomes self sufficient with no need for external support. In case you are wondering, the depicted engine is the GE CF6-50 that was used to power the A-300, Boeing 747 and also, the DC-10.
Hope this really helps you.
(sorry couldn't resist).
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
From: U.S.A.
AFR 330.
Another way to explain, hope it helps.
1. A/C on ground, no power. You switch batteries (28vdc) and start APU.
2. APU ON. APU generator is powering whole a/c electricall system (115 vac) and part of the air compressed by APU compressor, necessary for APU own operation, is BLEEDED to supply a/c Pneumatic system (+/- 30 psig)
3. A/C pneumatic system feed air conditioning packs,,ENGINE STARTERS and several minors users. Depend of cockpit selections
4. MAIN ENGINE START: APU keep supplying electrical power to whole aircraft. All APU pneumatic supply is dedicated to one at a time engine start, (air conditioning is switched of during Engine Start). APU Bleed air is directed though air valves to a PNEUMATIC ENGINE STARTER where pneumatic pressure energy is transformed into mechanical torque that, through drive box, makes main engine rotor turn. When MAIN ENGINE ROTOR reaches certain speed, MAIN ENGINE Compressor is able to compress inlet air to a certain pressure at which combustion make take place, so fuel is inyected, ignition plugs are switched on and voilá -combustion. After a short time, MAIN ENGINE is capable of turning and acelerating on his own power, so Pneumatic Starter is mechanically disconected and no more pneumatic power is directed to this starter
Engine Ignition System - DutchOps.com powered
Of course there are differences, this is just a basic explanation. And sorry, I'm not an instructor
Keep asking!!!
Another way to explain, hope it helps.
1. A/C on ground, no power. You switch batteries (28vdc) and start APU.
2. APU ON. APU generator is powering whole a/c electricall system (115 vac) and part of the air compressed by APU compressor, necessary for APU own operation, is BLEEDED to supply a/c Pneumatic system (+/- 30 psig)
3. A/C pneumatic system feed air conditioning packs,,ENGINE STARTERS and several minors users. Depend of cockpit selections
4. MAIN ENGINE START: APU keep supplying electrical power to whole aircraft. All APU pneumatic supply is dedicated to one at a time engine start, (air conditioning is switched of during Engine Start). APU Bleed air is directed though air valves to a PNEUMATIC ENGINE STARTER where pneumatic pressure energy is transformed into mechanical torque that, through drive box, makes main engine rotor turn. When MAIN ENGINE ROTOR reaches certain speed, MAIN ENGINE Compressor is able to compress inlet air to a certain pressure at which combustion make take place, so fuel is inyected, ignition plugs are switched on and voilá -combustion. After a short time, MAIN ENGINE is capable of turning and acelerating on his own power, so Pneumatic Starter is mechanically disconected and no more pneumatic power is directed to this starter
Engine Ignition System - DutchOps.com powered
Of course there are differences, this is just a basic explanation. And sorry, I'm not an instructor
Keep asking!!!
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,165
Likes: 0
From: Middle America
The APU is started by means of an onboard battery, or an electrical external power source or, depending on the kind of APU, a hydraulic accumulator that provides compressed gas to the APU. Some APUs aren't capable of being started in the air, but for ETOPs aircraft the APU must have the capability of being started up to an altitude of 40K feet.
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 90
Likes: 3
From: CE
TurbineD, you said, "As rotor speeds continue to increase the starter is disengaged......"
If I may elaborate a little to make it a bit clearer for AF330: The start air valve, which is adjacent to the starter, is closed off during the start cycle (circa 50% N3 on most R-R engines) thus shutting off bleed air to the starter motor. The starter motor shaft continues to rotate as it's driven by the gearbox once the engine is self sufficient and cannot actually be mechanically disengaged (unlike the IDG drive), but pawls within the starter mechanism mean that the starter turbine itself ceases to rotate.
If I may elaborate a little to make it a bit clearer for AF330: The start air valve, which is adjacent to the starter, is closed off during the start cycle (circa 50% N3 on most R-R engines) thus shutting off bleed air to the starter motor. The starter motor shaft continues to rotate as it's driven by the gearbox once the engine is self sufficient and cannot actually be mechanically disengaged (unlike the IDG drive), but pawls within the starter mechanism mean that the starter turbine itself ceases to rotate.