Caution - Gross Navigation Error Cause
Join Date: Oct 2004
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I happen to know the Captain of one of the aircraft involved, who is a highly experienced ex-Air Force pilot. He told me how he inadvertently inserted the waypoints incorrectly and then failed to miss the error when checking the Lat/Longs on the way point list, basically he saw what he expected to see, something like, N53 00.0 W050 00.0 . Instead he got N53 30.0 W050 00.0
I could see if you're not expecting to see 1/2 degree waypoint it would be possible to overlook it.
The crew were cleared direct to the first waypoint coasting out from Canada, bypassing the "Gate" waypoint which meant that a GNE chart plot would not have clearly shown the error (or was required, since they were still in radar contact) . Luckily the Gander controller caught the error and it was corrected before reaching the first fix, he informed them they were the 7th crew in a week to make that error. No violation was filed, but they got to have "Tea and biscuits" with the CP and it resulted in a company wide memo being distributed.
I could see if you're not expecting to see 1/2 degree waypoint it would be possible to overlook it.
The crew were cleared direct to the first waypoint coasting out from Canada, bypassing the "Gate" waypoint which meant that a GNE chart plot would not have clearly shown the error (or was required, since they were still in radar contact) . Luckily the Gander controller caught the error and it was corrected before reaching the first fix, he informed them they were the 7th crew in a week to make that error. No violation was filed, but they got to have "Tea and biscuits" with the CP and it resulted in a company wide memo being distributed.
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Interesting, I already used this naming convention for entering waypoints quite some time ago.
In the Navdatabase I use these seem to be included for years.
All properly described in the manual.
However proper checking of the coordinates is very important, to check if you got what you wanted.
In the Navdatabase I use these seem to be included for years.
All properly described in the manual.
However proper checking of the coordinates is very important, to check if you got what you wanted.
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Use the full LAT and LONG to avoid errors.
If a new NAT track or routing is issued I recommend to enter the full LAT and LONG and let the FMS determine the alphanumeric code for the waypoint. For example enter N5030.0/E03000.0 as a new waypoint and the FMS should abbreviate appropriately. This avoids incorrect data input i.e. 5030N instead of N5030.
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Not sure if entering the full Lat/Longs is the solution as this now gives you more digits to potentially screw up, such as Capt Groper posting his waypoint of N5030.0/E03000.0 which is E5030 (Apologies if you intended to post a East waypoint)
The lesson I take away from this is to slow down, be careful and double check.
Jeppesen and the associated avionics manufactures should have also gone to greater lengths to better disseminate this information ahead of its implementation.
The lesson I take away from this is to slow down, be careful and double check.
Jeppesen and the associated avionics manufactures should have also gone to greater lengths to better disseminate this information ahead of its implementation.
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Capt Groper and safelife are bang on. Which is why, and how, SOP's get created.
Type in waypoints the long way. Line select auto loaded waypoints and confirm the raw lat/long data. Compare distance and heading(usually 2 degrees off on the N. Atlantic) between waypoints.
Type in waypoints the long way. Line select auto loaded waypoints and confirm the raw lat/long data. Compare distance and heading(usually 2 degrees off on the N. Atlantic) between waypoints.
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Sounds reasonable. Simply enter the raw LAT/LONG.
As shown by this thread, multitudes of incidents have occurred. You enter numbers a certain way, and there is a pretty good chance you will mess it up, and the aircraft will drive in the wrong direction.
So, rather than just simply enter the LAT/LONG, there needs to be training and SOP how to do the shortcut the right way?
In reality, why is this even an issue at this point?
As shown by this thread, multitudes of incidents have occurred. You enter numbers a certain way, and there is a pretty good chance you will mess it up, and the aircraft will drive in the wrong direction.
So, rather than just simply enter the LAT/LONG, there needs to be training and SOP how to do the shortcut the right way?
In reality, why is this even an issue at this point?
