A330 Visual Question
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A330 Visual Question
For current A330 pilots, please.
A couple weeks ago I was a passenger on an A330 from Honolulu to Los Angeles. We arrived in the LAX area around 10:00 PM on a spectacularly clear night.
Having had LAX as my home base for some 25 years, I know the lay of the land quite well. It was apparent we were flying a Stadium Visual CVFP to 24R. (I knew it was 24R upon touchdown).
http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1312/00...UM_VIS24LR.PDF
As you can see the Stadium CVFP encourages, but certainly does not require, using the ILS turning onto final. FARs do require using the ILS G/S (or other vertically guided IAP), though, once on final and inside the FAF.
As we passed the old Hollywood Park race track I commented to my wife that we appeared to be a bit high. Turns out we were as we touched down fairly far down then he really got on the brakes and T/Rs.
As we were taxing in the captain made a PA apologizing for the firm, noisy landing. We conceded "we were a bit high." I would have never made that PA. Everything turned out fine so leave well enough alone would be my view.
My question is about the magic on an A330, which I know nothing about. In the "old" days we would tune the ILS turning final on either CFVP for LAX. Would some other form of vertical path guidance be used on the A330 in these circumstances, such as a flight path vector symbol or such?
A couple weeks ago I was a passenger on an A330 from Honolulu to Los Angeles. We arrived in the LAX area around 10:00 PM on a spectacularly clear night.
Having had LAX as my home base for some 25 years, I know the lay of the land quite well. It was apparent we were flying a Stadium Visual CVFP to 24R. (I knew it was 24R upon touchdown).
http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1312/00...UM_VIS24LR.PDF
As you can see the Stadium CVFP encourages, but certainly does not require, using the ILS turning onto final. FARs do require using the ILS G/S (or other vertically guided IAP), though, once on final and inside the FAF.
As we passed the old Hollywood Park race track I commented to my wife that we appeared to be a bit high. Turns out we were as we touched down fairly far down then he really got on the brakes and T/Rs.
As we were taxing in the captain made a PA apologizing for the firm, noisy landing. We conceded "we were a bit high." I would have never made that PA. Everything turned out fine so leave well enough alone would be my view.
My question is about the magic on an A330, which I know nothing about. In the "old" days we would tune the ILS turning final on either CFVP for LAX. Would some other form of vertical path guidance be used on the A330 in these circumstances, such as a flight path vector symbol or such?
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Slam Dunk Approach?
Flown on A330 as pax HNL-AKL-HNL...2 of the most wonderful landings I had ever experienced on the " scare bus ".
However, often from HNL-LAX, it was quite a many slam dunks! I guess many jockeys overestimated their superior skills in accepting slam dunk visual approaches after being held high by ATC, or last minute side-steps. Just MHO.
However, often from HNL-LAX, it was quite a many slam dunks! I guess many jockeys overestimated their superior skills in accepting slam dunk visual approaches after being held high by ATC, or last minute side-steps. Just MHO.
Would some other form of vertical path guidance be used on the A330 in these circumstances, such as a flight path vector symbol or such?
VNAV around the corner?
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Capn Bloggs:
The FPV I am familiar with (not the AB330) gives vertical guidance to the runway provided you place the FPV symbol on the approach end of the runway. Of course, if you start this maneuver high or low, the result is too steep or too shallow of an angle, as the case may be.
Could be I guess. But, that is ad hoc VNAV capability way beyond anything I know about.
The FPV wouldn't be giving any "guidance", only "what we're doing right now", I would have thought.
VNAV around the corner?
But, that is ad hoc VNAV capability way beyond anything I know about.
. Whether the manufacturers intended it to be used around the base turn onto final is another issue.That approach is a Visual; surely the FAA doesn't "require" use of the ILS?
The FPV I am familiar with (not the AB330) gives vertical guidance to the runway provided you place the FPV symbol on the approach end of the runway.
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Originally Posted by aterpster
As you can see the Stadium CVFP encourages, but certainly does not require, using the ILS turning onto final. FARs do require using the ILS G/S (or other vertically guided IAP), though, once on final and inside the FAF.
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Capn Bloggs:
The only circumstance of which I am aware where VPATH work reliably going around a corner, so to speak, is on a database coded radius-to-fix (RF) leg. RF legs wouldn't be coded on any CVFP.
The sure do, and have done so for many years. But, only at airports with operating control towers:
§ 91.131 Operations in Class B airspace.
(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area except in compliance with § 91.129 and the following rules (remainder not pertinent)
91.129 Operations in Class D airspace. (Pertinent portion follows):
(2) Each pilot operating a large or turbine-powered airplane approaching to land on a runway served by an instrument approach procedure with vertical guidance, if the airplane is so equipped, must:
(i) Operate that airplane at an altitude at or above the glidepath between the published final approach fix and the decision altitude (DA),or decision height (DH), as applicable; or
(ii) If compliance with the applicable distance-from-cloud criteria requires glide path interception closer in, operate that airplane at or above the glide path, between the point of interception of glide path andthe DA or the DH.
(3) Each pilot operating an airplane approaching to land on a runway served by a visual approach slope indicator must maintain an altitude at or above the glide path until a lower altitude is necessary for a safe landing.
(4) Paragraphs (e)(2) and (e)(3) of this section do notprohibit normal bracketing maneuvers above or below the glide path that are conducted for the purpose of remaining on the glide path.
Paragraphs (e)(2) and (e)(3) of this section do not prohibit normal bracketing maneuvers above or below the glide slope that are conductedfor the purpose of remaining on the glide slope.
The nerds like to use it. I don't know the capability of AB in this regard, but in my aeroplane (717) it works well (most of the time 
. Whether the manufacturers intended it to be used around the base turn onto final is another issue.
. Whether the manufacturers intended it to be used around the base turn onto final is another issue.
That approach is a Visual; surely the FAA doesn't "require" use of the ILS?
§ 91.131 Operations in Class B airspace.
(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area except in compliance with § 91.129 and the following rules (remainder not pertinent)
91.129 Operations in Class D airspace. (Pertinent portion follows):
(2) Each pilot operating a large or turbine-powered airplane approaching to land on a runway served by an instrument approach procedure with vertical guidance, if the airplane is so equipped, must:
(i) Operate that airplane at an altitude at or above the glidepath between the published final approach fix and the decision altitude (DA),or decision height (DH), as applicable; or
(ii) If compliance with the applicable distance-from-cloud criteria requires glide path interception closer in, operate that airplane at or above the glide path, between the point of interception of glide path andthe DA or the DH.
(3) Each pilot operating an airplane approaching to land on a runway served by a visual approach slope indicator must maintain an altitude at or above the glide path until a lower altitude is necessary for a safe landing.
(4) Paragraphs (e)(2) and (e)(3) of this section do notprohibit normal bracketing maneuvers above or below the glide path that are conducted for the purpose of remaining on the glide path.
Paragraphs (e)(2) and (e)(3) of this section do not prohibit normal bracketing maneuvers above or below the glide slope that are conductedfor the purpose of remaining on the glide slope.
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If the FMS was programmed properly the ILS would have been autotuned for that runway. Maybe a new first officer on the line?
If they were high it would more because the people in front than the 330 hardware/software
If they were high it would more because the people in front than the 330 hardware/software
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Quote:
If the FMS was programmed properly the ILS would have been autotuned for that runway.
How would it autotune if it wasn't in the flight plan?
If the FMS was programmed properly the ILS would have been autotuned for that runway.
How would it autotune if it wasn't in the flight plan?
Is that a question or didn't you read what I wrote capn bloggs?
Let me put it another way. If the Stadium Visual is loaded from the database, I assume the ILS approach would not be loaded. If the Stadium Visual is not loaded, I assume you would not load one of the 24 ILS approaches because they start further out and you wouldn't be flying it, per se.
So back to my question, which I'll ask in a different way. Does the A330 autotune the ILS based only on the selected runway, without an ILS also being inserted in the flight plan?
Capt Bloggs:---
Good question, not something we see much in our operation flying from ILS to ILS, however.
In the Sim we recently diverted to Osaka Itami RJOO which has no ILS available in the data base, you select RWY 32L and build the approach from MIDOH. Then you must manually insert the ILS on the Rad Nav page.
So I guess the answer is---if no ILS is selected into the flight plan from the data base then the ILS will not auto tune.
Good question, not something we see much in our operation flying from ILS to ILS, however.
In the Sim we recently diverted to Osaka Itami RJOO which has no ILS available in the data base, you select RWY 32L and build the approach from MIDOH. Then you must manually insert the ILS on the Rad Nav page.
So I guess the answer is---if no ILS is selected into the flight plan from the data base then the ILS will not auto tune.
Does the A330 autotune the ILS based only on the selected runway, without an ILS also being inserted in the flight plan?
So I guess the answer is---if no ILS is selected into the flight plan from the data base then the ILS will not auto tune.
Correct. From the FCOM:
Each FMGEC automatically tunes one ILS frequency (and one MLS simultaneously):
‐ In PREFLIGHT or TAKEOFF phase, when the takeoff runway has an associated ILS/MLS
‐ In CLIMB, CRUISE, DESCENT, APPROACH, or GO-AROUND phase, when the type of approach in the flight plan is ILS/MLS
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It seems one thing is for certain. The crew of the A330 in my original post was required to have the ILS 24R tuned somewhere while turning final on the Stadium Visual.
They may very have done just that.
They may very have done just that.
So now we've sorted out the lack of autotuning, the crew would/should have manually tuned the ILS, and used the GS for reference around the corner? Company SOP? Ours is that we must manually tune it, but don't have to couple it up, given the vagaries of large intercepts close-in to the runway.
So the original question still stands!
Out with it, nitpicker! 
So the original question still stands!
Out with it, nitpicker!
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Tuning this approach would give you a beautiful profile including vertical deviation. Besides a 3deg descend from 7000 is given to you. Place the bird under the horizon with its tail just touching it gives you the required profile. This keeps you perfectly above the ALT restriction.
By tuning one runway in the primary and one in the secondary you are a click away from an autotuned ILS.
By tuning one runway in the primary and one in the secondary you are a click away from an autotuned ILS
.
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OK465, jolly good answer. Its taken a while on this thread but finally we have the doughnut! Provides a good indication of high/low for any location for turning final in a 330, now the question of deleting PPOS or not...