Driving off birds using acft radar
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Florida and wherever my laptop is
Posts: 1,350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Correct me if I am wrong (story of my life) but I believe the genesis of transponder codes was during WW2 when they were known as Identification Friend or Foe (IFF for short). In the hope that Germans listening in to RAF frequencies could be fooled, various code names were invented. Thus the code name for IFF was "Parrot." And the code name for transmit was "Squawk."
When RAF controllers wished to tell pilots to switch to a new frequency they would say "Squawk Channel Able
If they told the pilot to switch off his transponder the code word was "Strangle" Thus "Strangle your Parrot"
When RAF controllers wished to tell pilots to switch to a new frequency they would say "Squawk Channel Able
If they told the pilot to switch off his transponder the code word was "Strangle" Thus "Strangle your Parrot"
Listening to the radar pulse from IFF sounded like a squawk noise and this was the 'colloquial' term used by the engineers. It stuck and has been used since then in R/T to tell an aircraft to switch on its transponder. The wartime R/T that was used to obfuscate what was being talked about was Parrot. The exchange 'Strangle Parrot' -- response 'Polly's Dead' were used. But we are back in the times of 'What's your oranges?' ' Oranges Sweet'
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Portugal
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Guys, thanks all for your opinions but I am not discussing if a PWS works with radar off or the use of the radar for meteo purposes (this is the reason it is there and I am sure all of you know how to use it!). Thanks for the opinions any way!
My post put in discussion whether or not a bird strike could be avoided using your airborne radar !
I think that the big majority of us agree that it is a myth. I could not find any reference about this statement, in a scientific way or a study about this, in spite that few airports briefing charts recommends the use of your radar due to bird concentration.
Thinking a little bit more, if you consider that the radar sweep is like a "knife" (normaly with a gap of 3º ) and very directional transmission (not omnidirectional), the bird should be in your radar beam to be scared off otherwise they would not "feel" or "see" your radar transmission because it does not exist out off the beam.
Getting out of airplanes, I have a small sailboat docked in a fishing port. I was talking to a few fishermen about this and they asked me if it is a joke ! When the fishing net is closed with lots of fish the seagulls are a problem for them and it does not matter if the onboard radar is on or off. (and lets consider their radar is an object sensitive one, much more powerfull than ours, 360º sweep with a large beam with a sweep rate between 1 to 2 revolutions per second (60 to 120 rpm).
Just another point to think about !
The discussion is open and I would appreciate any reference to a scientific study about it (if there is one!)
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Florida and wherever my laptop is
Posts: 1,350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is an Urban Myth
"Common misconceptions about bird strikes A number of widespread misconceptions about bird strikes may give pilots a false sense of security and prevent them from reacting appropriately to the threat of a bird strike or an actual event. These misconceptions include:
Strategies for Prevention of Bird-Strike Events
- Birds don’t fly at night.
- Birds don’t fly in poor visibility, such as in clouds, fog, rain, or snow.
- Birds can detect airplane landing lights and weather radar and avoid the airplane.
- Airplane colors and jet engine spinner markings help to repel birds.
- Birds seek to avoid airplanes because of aerodynamic and engine noise.
- Birds dive to avoid an approaching airplane."
Strategies for Prevention of Bird-Strike Events
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: france
Posts: 760
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 2,525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sullenbergers radar I am sure was turned off because no weather was involved in his Hudson river landing. Why turn it on it you don't need it? Flying into TGU with thousands of turkey buzzard I never turned it on because it doesn't do anything to the birds. See and avoid was the only way to miss them. They didn't see and avoid even though he did one hell of a job of putting it into the Hudson safely. Unfortunately nobody was looking out the window as they approached the geese, probably because of cockpit work load switching frequency, etc.
Bottums Up
Sullenbergers radar I am sure was turned off because no weather was involved in his Hudson river landing.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Another Planet.
Posts: 559
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Unfortunately nobody was looking out the window as they approached the geese, probably because of cockpit work load switching frequency, etc."
So what were they supposed to do upon perceiving the hazard of multiple Canada Geese attacking their craft?
After the RAF lost an aircraft which attempted to "duck under" a flock on the approach, the mantra promulgated at the time was "birds always break down", so don't do it!
The advice in the Strategies attachment referring to not going around seems sound and logical, which is why I and others are seeking information regarding the Nov 2008 737-800 hull write-off at Rome Ciampino but answer came there none from the Italian Investigation, nor from the operating company.
(See thread "Missing Accident Report"). Since moved from Safety to Questions if the Mods would like to explain WHY??!!
So what were they supposed to do upon perceiving the hazard of multiple Canada Geese attacking their craft?
After the RAF lost an aircraft which attempted to "duck under" a flock on the approach, the mantra promulgated at the time was "birds always break down", so don't do it!
The advice in the Strategies attachment referring to not going around seems sound and logical, which is why I and others are seeking information regarding the Nov 2008 737-800 hull write-off at Rome Ciampino but answer came there none from the Italian Investigation, nor from the operating company.
(See thread "Missing Accident Report"). Since moved from Safety to Questions if the Mods would like to explain WHY??!!
Last edited by BARKINGMAD; 14th Oct 2013 at 00:06.
After the RAF lost an aircraft which attempted to "duck under" a flock on the approach, the mantra promulgated at the time was "birds always break down", so don't do it!
Of course their are a myriad of bird hazard strikes by all types of birds but my comments are aimed at the statistical hazard to safe flight (multiple medium-large) birds in a regime where little margin exists for multiple damaging sites to the aircraft.
In spite of the Sullenberger incident the largest threat to flight has been lounging water fowl on or near the runway. When startled these birds go up just high enough to maneuver sideways to clear the threat. Unfortunately the plane also wants to go up after reaching Vr.
Once airborne this type of bird again uses its flight ability to peel off horizontally away from the threat. Considering the closing speed between them there is darn little the pilot can do to avoid the birds. The best course is to leave it up to the birds since their programing in this regard is natural.
If we get into the lesser statistical threats like the Sullenberger incident or the Italian B737 other less common factors are involved.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Avoiding them? The Startling Science of a Starling Murmuration - Wired Science
One predictor of how many birds will be aloft is possibly wind direction. At least in the case of geese in the fall.
We hit 3 snow geese on the approach (180 knots ~2000 agl), 1 in the nose gear, 1-2 in the radome (1 ended up inside the dome) around dusk. Later that evening, after dark and 200 miles away we almost clipped another flock a moment after Vr.
Winds were strong and cold out of the north and I suspect every bird was in the sky to take advantage of the push south.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Here, there, everywhere
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting thread.
A Captain I used to fly with swore by this, that he'd never had a bird strike in his 40+ years of flying by ALWAYS having th WX radar on whilst low level and for take-off and landing. However, he was still spouting this BS after we'd had a bird strike together.
I've made efforts to test this, with zero success. Whilst waiting for a truck to arrive to scare off a murder (that right isn't it) of crows one morning, I fired up the radar played with the tilt, gain and other various modes. The little sods just sat there and soaks it up.
On another occasion, during a landing we spotted birds passing in front of us. I leaned over and turned it on - the birds actually then turned towards us. So I've seen evidence it actually attracts them!
A Captain I used to fly with swore by this, that he'd never had a bird strike in his 40+ years of flying by ALWAYS having th WX radar on whilst low level and for take-off and landing. However, he was still spouting this BS after we'd had a bird strike together.
I've made efforts to test this, with zero success. Whilst waiting for a truck to arrive to scare off a murder (that right isn't it) of crows one morning, I fired up the radar played with the tilt, gain and other various modes. The little sods just sat there and soaks it up.
On another occasion, during a landing we spotted birds passing in front of us. I leaned over and turned it on - the birds actually then turned towards us. So I've seen evidence it actually attracts them!
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 1,270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi levm,
Should we tell ornithologists that 40 years of using radar to track birds (History - swiss-birdradar ) is actually scaring them away and causing them to migrate?
Should we tell ornithologists that 40 years of using radar to track birds (History - swiss-birdradar ) is actually scaring them away and causing them to migrate?
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Home soon
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At the end, if I switch the Wx radar on on line up, I am sure it is available when I push TOGA.
Next time you fly,let us know the speed you reach 12 secs after the TLA reaches the t/o warning position.
Thanks.
Last edited by de facto; 17th Oct 2013 at 18:09.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Rocky Mts High
Age: 61
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
latetonite
Join Date: May 2001
Location: A few degrees South
Posts: 417
De facto: Right. But with a 12 sec delay. This is for the pilots who forgot the radar..
An airline pilot turns his radar on on TO.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: A few degrees South
Posts: 417
De facto: Right. But with a 12 sec delay. This is for the pilots who forgot the radar..
An airline pilot turns his radar on on TO.
More problems when bush rats are given new toys with test buttons.
Last edited by Samba Anaconda; 17th Oct 2013 at 21:20.
