lost comm 747
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lost comm 747
Question :
One 747 on take off from Europe to USA has a COMM problem on the departure. what is the procedure? because as i alwyas heard you must continue to destination, but not for a 747 crossing the atlantic i imagine.
One 747 on take off from Europe to USA has a COMM problem on the departure. what is the procedure? because as i alwyas heard you must continue to destination, but not for a 747 crossing the atlantic i imagine.
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PROCEDURES IN THE EVENT OF AIR-GROUND COMMUNICATION FAILURE IN THE EUR REGION
...
proceed according to the current flight plan route to the appropriate designated navigation aid serving the destination aerodrome and, when required to ensure compliance with 3.1 f), hold over this aid until commencement of descent;....
g) complete a normal instrument approach procedure as specified for the designated navigation aid; and
h) land, if possible, within thirty minutes after the estimated time of arrival specified in 3.1 f) or the last acknowledged expected approach time, whichever is later.
thatīs the last thing i found about it
...
proceed according to the current flight plan route to the appropriate designated navigation aid serving the destination aerodrome and, when required to ensure compliance with 3.1 f), hold over this aid until commencement of descent;....
g) complete a normal instrument approach procedure as specified for the designated navigation aid; and
h) land, if possible, within thirty minutes after the estimated time of arrival specified in 3.1 f) or the last acknowledged expected approach time, whichever is later.
thatīs the last thing i found about it
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It would be a real challenge to lose comms on a 747.
VHF (3 systems)
Satcom Voice (including Passenger IFE handsets where fitted) i.e. 6 voice channels
ACARS messaging (and FMC Comm where fitted)
HF (2 systems)
Direct VHF
Independent channels for Captain, F/O and First Observer
Observer Audio Selector Panel Switching
VHF (3 systems)
Satcom Voice (including Passenger IFE handsets where fitted) i.e. 6 voice channels
ACARS messaging (and FMC Comm where fitted)
HF (2 systems)
Direct VHF
Independent channels for Captain, F/O and First Observer
Observer Audio Selector Panel Switching
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ahhh ok "fantom" you thought i am a bad guy? no.
i fly turboprop so i am not used to the big planes, and just i had this idea while flying, but as i am seeing there is no answer. then if someday i fly a big one, just get in the hold, wait some time to burn fuel, and go back to the airport.
and the fighter jets, yes.. but what if you are in IMC?..
i fly turboprop so i am not used to the big planes, and just i had this idea while flying, but as i am seeing there is no answer. then if someday i fly a big one, just get in the hold, wait some time to burn fuel, and go back to the airport.
and the fighter jets, yes.. but what if you are in IMC?..
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As I said before, the ICAO regulation has nothing to do with IFR or VFR, but it depends if you are VMC or IMC.
In all cases...Squawk 7600
In short...VMC: remain in VMC, land at the nearest suitable airport, notify authorities asap.
IMC : Fly last assigned speed and level for 7 minutes
Then fly your filed flightplan routing and level and speed to your destination. Fly the expected STAR and approach, or hold,over the IAF in order to land within 30 minutes of the filed ETA.
It is more complex, in reality, but as you fly turboprops, you really should know this. this is BASIC. did you never practice this during ab initio training?!
In all cases...Squawk 7600
In short...VMC: remain in VMC, land at the nearest suitable airport, notify authorities asap.
IMC : Fly last assigned speed and level for 7 minutes
Then fly your filed flightplan routing and level and speed to your destination. Fly the expected STAR and approach, or hold,over the IAF in order to land within 30 minutes of the filed ETA.
It is more complex, in reality, but as you fly turboprops, you really should know this. this is BASIC. did you never practice this during ab initio training?!
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Why Mr Kroak, may I ask, are you shy about putting a mention on your profile that you do fly turboprop?
Fantom is right. The radio fail procedures, at least in the west, are all laid down clearly and a thread
about it is at best waste of band- width and at worst waffle.
My pilot friends tell me that where they fly they all have every tower and ATC centre's phone number in their mobile phones.
Inevitable? Evidently there was a story going around about a Fokker instructor once in the company's training base at Schiphol who would spread his arms wide in response to a question
of the 'what if' variety and say with his strong Dutch accent -
'It will never happen.'
Fantom is right. The radio fail procedures, at least in the west, are all laid down clearly and a thread
about it is at best waste of band- width and at worst waffle.
My pilot friends tell me that where they fly they all have every tower and ATC centre's phone number in their mobile phones.
Inevitable? Evidently there was a story going around about a Fokker instructor once in the company's training base at Schiphol who would spread his arms wide in response to a question
of the 'what if' variety and say with his strong Dutch accent -
'It will never happen.'
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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It certainly isn't a 'stupid' question, take a scenario, airborne from SPL, over London and talking to them, told to go get your Oceanic on box two, no contact box two and now, no contact box one or three, CPDLC just dropped out, HF won't work either, obviously a major problem down there in the avionics bay, what now? Are you going to continue Oceanic to New York? Yes, an enormous amount of redundancy is built into the systems these days but you cannot predict the extent of an avionics melt down that might wipe out your system redundancy.
A dozen pilots will give you at least six answers. 'continue as flight plan', 'declare an emergency and land', (they may not hear you), 'stay within the area in which you last had contact, go to Lambourne, (or appropriate hold, depending on LHR runway in use, if you know it), at cruising level, let down in the Lambourne hold and then join the ILS for LHR'? Suppose your transponder doesn't work either? Is your ILS reliable/working, do LATCC still have Primary radar?
There are Radio failure procedures printed on the appropriate trans-Atlantic and Pacific charts, the best advice I can offer is be familiar with these.
Remember the procedures are different if you have not received confirmation of radar contact. Imagine this scenario, airborne from Manchester for LHR, airborne and in a turn, told to contact approach, no contact by any means, what is the non radar contact radio failure procedure for such a case? (must not enter controlled airspace etc.!). This was a Command Assessment LOFT, fortunately I did' t get that one! Fun to fly though!
A dozen pilots will give you at least six answers. 'continue as flight plan', 'declare an emergency and land', (they may not hear you), 'stay within the area in which you last had contact, go to Lambourne, (or appropriate hold, depending on LHR runway in use, if you know it), at cruising level, let down in the Lambourne hold and then join the ILS for LHR'? Suppose your transponder doesn't work either? Is your ILS reliable/working, do LATCC still have Primary radar?
There are Radio failure procedures printed on the appropriate trans-Atlantic and Pacific charts, the best advice I can offer is be familiar with these.
Remember the procedures are different if you have not received confirmation of radar contact. Imagine this scenario, airborne from Manchester for LHR, airborne and in a turn, told to contact approach, no contact by any means, what is the non radar contact radio failure procedure for such a case? (must not enter controlled airspace etc.!). This was a Command Assessment LOFT, fortunately I did' t get that one! Fun to fly though!
Last edited by parabellum; 15th Feb 2013 at 10:04.
told to go get your Oceanic on box two, no contact box two and now, no contact box one or three, CPDLC just dropped out, HF won't work either, obviously a major problem down there in the avionics bay, what now?
... I don't think I would be continuing over the Atlantic ...
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.....why is this a silly question? I thought it's quite interesting.
How do the fighters "communicate" with the aircraft?
Sorry i do not mean to be rude, its a serious question. The "suitable airport" (enroute) would not be expecting you're going to descend in their airspace and land (assuming you know which runway in use).
Is this what you are expected to do? I'm a bit confused. I apologize if its another silly question....
That's just until the fighters arrive alongside you
In short...VMC: remain in VMC, land at the nearest suitable airport, notify authorities asap
Is this what you are expected to do? I'm a bit confused. I apologize if its another silly question....
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Hello,
Not a silly question at all.
These are the ICAO Standard Procedures. however, the Commander has obviously the liberty to alter these procedures as in his/her opinion another course of action is better for the Flight Safety.
What to do in which case is not so easy to tell here in front of a computer...It comes with experience and airmanship. there are so many variables to count with, and that is why we as Flightcrew deserve respect, a good salary and a stressfree life...
Not a silly question at all.
These are the ICAO Standard Procedures. however, the Commander has obviously the liberty to alter these procedures as in his/her opinion another course of action is better for the Flight Safety.
What to do in which case is not so easy to tell here in front of a computer...It comes with experience and airmanship. there are so many variables to count with, and that is why we as Flightcrew deserve respect, a good salary and a stressfree life...
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§ 91.185 IFR operations: Two-way radio communications failure.
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each pilot who has two-way radio communications failure when operating under IFR shall comply with the rules of this section.
(b) VFR conditions. If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR conditions are encountered after the failure, each pilot shall continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable.
(c) IFR conditions. If the failure occurs in IFR conditions, or if paragraph (b) of this section cannot be complied with, each pilot shall continue the flight according to the following:
(1) Route. (i) By the route assigned in the last ATC clearance received;
(ii) If being radar vectored, by the direct route from the point of radio failure to the fix, route, or airway specified in the vector clearance;
(iii) In the absence of an assigned route, by the route that ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance; or
(iv) In the absence of an assigned route or a route that ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance, by the route filed in the flight plan.
(2) Altitude. At the highest of the following altitudes or flight levels for the route segment being flown:
(i) The altitude or flight level assigned in the last ATC clearance received;
(ii) The minimum altitude (converted, if appropriate, to minimum flight level as prescribed in § 91.121(c)) for IFR operations; or
(iii) The altitude or flight level ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance.
(3) Leave clearance limit. (i) When the clearance limit is a fix from which an approach begins, commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if one has not been received, as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.
(ii) If the clearance limit is not a fix from which an approach begins, leave the clearance limit at the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if none has been received, upon arrival over the clearance limit, and proceed to a fix from which an approach begins and commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each pilot who has two-way radio communications failure when operating under IFR shall comply with the rules of this section.
(b) VFR conditions. If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR conditions are encountered after the failure, each pilot shall continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable.
(c) IFR conditions. If the failure occurs in IFR conditions, or if paragraph (b) of this section cannot be complied with, each pilot shall continue the flight according to the following:
(1) Route. (i) By the route assigned in the last ATC clearance received;
(ii) If being radar vectored, by the direct route from the point of radio failure to the fix, route, or airway specified in the vector clearance;
(iii) In the absence of an assigned route, by the route that ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance; or
(iv) In the absence of an assigned route or a route that ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance, by the route filed in the flight plan.
(2) Altitude. At the highest of the following altitudes or flight levels for the route segment being flown:
(i) The altitude or flight level assigned in the last ATC clearance received;
(ii) The minimum altitude (converted, if appropriate, to minimum flight level as prescribed in § 91.121(c)) for IFR operations; or
(iii) The altitude or flight level ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance.
(3) Leave clearance limit. (i) When the clearance limit is a fix from which an approach begins, commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if one has not been received, as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.
(ii) If the clearance limit is not a fix from which an approach begins, leave the clearance limit at the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if none has been received, upon arrival over the clearance limit, and proceed to a fix from which an approach begins and commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.
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despegue
did you read my question?
"It is more complex, in reality, but as you fly turboprops, you really should know this. this is BASIC. did you never practice this during ab initio training?"
i am not talking about a usual 2 hours flight over Europe, i am talking on a big plane that needs a oceanic clearance, that in case of returning needs to burn fuel for a lot of time. I am really impressed on some answers, just the first time i make a question.
no i am not shy thanks guys!
did you read my question?
"It is more complex, in reality, but as you fly turboprops, you really should know this. this is BASIC. did you never practice this during ab initio training?"
i am not talking about a usual 2 hours flight over Europe, i am talking on a big plane that needs a oceanic clearance, that in case of returning needs to burn fuel for a lot of time. I am really impressed on some answers, just the first time i make a question.
no i am not shy thanks guys!
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. . . and that is why we as Flightcrew deserve respect, a good salary and a stressfree life...
The respect our grandparents engendered and rarely spoke of is not
something you get by saying 'this I deserve'. ('Look at me. . Look at me')
This I believe.