Landing in a TS
Thread Starter
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
Joined: May 2000
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From: England
Landing in a TS
Hi folks,
First post here for some time. As someone not experienced with WX radar, all I know is that landing into a TS is not something done without good reason. There here exists a video on youtube that shows a crew landing into what appears to be an active cell. My first thoughts were - what happens if they need to go around? Flying right into a cell is surely something to be avoided at all costs? Well that's what I was taught and indeed always teach my student pilots of albeit lighter aircraft.
What exactly are the criteria with regards WX radar interpretation and landing in such circumstances? Is the WX radar perhaps telling them something that I am missing?
Many thanks.
First post here for some time. As someone not experienced with WX radar, all I know is that landing into a TS is not something done without good reason. There here exists a video on youtube that shows a crew landing into what appears to be an active cell. My first thoughts were - what happens if they need to go around? Flying right into a cell is surely something to be avoided at all costs? Well that's what I was taught and indeed always teach my student pilots of albeit lighter aircraft.
What exactly are the criteria with regards WX radar interpretation and landing in such circumstances? Is the WX radar perhaps telling them something that I am missing?
Many thanks.
Last edited by VFE; 17th November 2012 at 11:29.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,835
Likes: 85
From: Boldly going where no split infinitive has gone before..
What is it with people doing dumb things, then posting them on You Tube to highlight the fact?
Where to start- Severe WX returns- don't land.
TWR report of heavy TS activity over the field- don't land.
Lightning visible- don't land.
Where to start- Severe WX returns- don't land.
TWR report of heavy TS activity over the field- don't land.
Lightning visible- don't land.
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 3,204
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From: Seattle
The radar isn't telling them anything they couldn't see out the window and/or infer from the tower's inquiries and statements. There is nothing I can see that gives ANY reason -- good or otherwise -- to try to land in that.
Even if the initial assessment was that the TS was not immediately over the airport (from the visible column to the right and the appearance of the approach lights), the DISappearance of the approach lights on final should have been enough of a clue to go around immediately, BEFORE getting into the cloud.
If that's not enough to question the pilots' judgement, holding a camera in his lap or propped on the glareshield during that approach was REALLY idiotic!
Even if the initial assessment was that the TS was not immediately over the airport (from the visible column to the right and the appearance of the approach lights), the DISappearance of the approach lights on final should have been enough of a clue to go around immediately, BEFORE getting into the cloud.
If that's not enough to question the pilots' judgement, holding a camera in his lap or propped on the glareshield during that approach was REALLY idiotic!
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,513
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From: In my own little world
Intruder, I believe I posted a similar sentiment about the camera when this video first appeared on a thread a couple of months ago.
Hero if it works but no way out if any windshear or a go around late on. Did I imagine it or did the approach lights go out for a few seconds after the lightning strike at about 1:19?
Hero if it works but no way out if any windshear or a go around late on. Did I imagine it or did the approach lights go out for a few seconds after the lightning strike at about 1:19?
Thread Starter
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,689
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From: England
Hmmm, my thoughts are confirmed it seems. I guess the fact the video was posted for public consumption made me second guess my own knowledge on the matter! Why on earth would any professional pilot wish to highlight their own poor judgement in such a way? This social media thing really does bring out the idiocy in people.
Thanks for the responses.
Thanks for the responses.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,569
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From: Florida
Well the video was enlightening and deserves use in training. Let's hope that nobody else tries the same thing.
For me just watching, I was more worried about windshear even on the edges of the visible rain.
I wonder why the video was shot in the first place, I can't bring myself to accept a "hey watch this" attitude.
For me just watching, I was more worried about windshear even on the edges of the visible rain.
I wonder why the video was shot in the first place, I can't bring myself to accept a "hey watch this" attitude.
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1. according to this video this app and landing was piece of cake.
2. according to the view of weather in APP it could turn much more different
3. We saw similar wx, except that after touch down, vis was 20 m !!!
3. similar wx, if respect yourself, turn back and either wait or go Altn apt
2. according to the view of weather in APP it could turn much more different
3. We saw similar wx, except that after touch down, vis was 20 m !!!
3. similar wx, if respect yourself, turn back and either wait or go Altn apt
Joined: Dec 1999
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From: UK
The pilots got away with it. This time.
Joined: Apr 2010
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From: in the flight deck
Hmmm.......at least the terrain is flat 
have you guys seen people landing in HKG when the it's affected by typhoon ? and with all the high terrain around that airport and thunderstorms all over the airport.
I think I've seen the "big carriers" still carry on for approach to land.
have you guys seen people landing in HKG when the it's affected by typhoon ? and with all the high terrain around that airport and thunderstorms all over the airport.I think I've seen the "big carriers" still carry on for approach to land.
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 954
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From: USA
The airplane in the video cut it a little too fine for my taste. It looked like the rain shaft from the storm was centered not too far away from the runway. While they appeared to miss the worst of it, I don't see how they could have known they would. A fairly good chance of serious windshear seemed likely but didn't materialize. This time.
From the present comfort of my living room in a well rested state and with the full benefit of hindsight I can say I would have probably done it differently!
Seriously though...
Weighing the hazards associated with flying in close proximity to thunderstorms and deciding how close is too close involves a little more than can be expressed in a single simple statement. Guidelines contained in the company manual at my last outfit included the following minimum distances from thunderstorms:
Airport - 3 NM
Terminal area - 5NM
Enroute climb and descent - 10 NM
Cruise - 20NM
Additionally, the manual suggests that consideration be given to the size, intensity and motion of the storm(s) in question in determining whether the minimum distances are sufficient to avoid any lightning, hail and windshear hazards which might be present or likely.
Properly assessing the threat level of observed and forecast conditions then crafting strategies and tactics to minimize risk while maximizing the probability of mission success is the goal of that illusive quality called airmanship. Let's face it the safest thing to do is scrub the flight if the conditions are anything less than ideal. But that's not what we're here for is it?
So given the information I captured in one view of the video I believe I would have selected and/or negotiated a nice place to hold for a few minutes while the storm moved away from the airport then made another approach when I wouldn't have to fly so close to an active cell. But that's just me from the safety of my chair here at home.
Best,
westhawk
From the present comfort of my living room in a well rested state and with the full benefit of hindsight I can say I would have probably done it differently!
Seriously though...
Weighing the hazards associated with flying in close proximity to thunderstorms and deciding how close is too close involves a little more than can be expressed in a single simple statement. Guidelines contained in the company manual at my last outfit included the following minimum distances from thunderstorms:
Airport - 3 NM
Terminal area - 5NM
Enroute climb and descent - 10 NM
Cruise - 20NM
Additionally, the manual suggests that consideration be given to the size, intensity and motion of the storm(s) in question in determining whether the minimum distances are sufficient to avoid any lightning, hail and windshear hazards which might be present or likely.
Properly assessing the threat level of observed and forecast conditions then crafting strategies and tactics to minimize risk while maximizing the probability of mission success is the goal of that illusive quality called airmanship. Let's face it the safest thing to do is scrub the flight if the conditions are anything less than ideal. But that's not what we're here for is it?
So given the information I captured in one view of the video I believe I would have selected and/or negotiated a nice place to hold for a few minutes while the storm moved away from the airport then made another approach when I wouldn't have to fly so close to an active cell. But that's just me from the safety of my chair here at home.
Best,
westhawk
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,960
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From: Australia
Coming over the threshold with PAPI indicating four reds, who knows, they might have been in a windshear situation. Wouldn't be a big surprise, trying to land in this weather.
That was a very flat approach all the way, way below 3 degrees. Assuming real time (as well as Mk1 eyeballs) time the interval between the auto 500' call and touchdown.
Tootle pip!!
Joined: Nov 2012
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From: USA
Yes it was a flat approach and windshear comes to mind right off. Though I must ask, now that everybody has condemned it, how many have done it?
I have and "I learned about flying from that" even after I read about the dangers a thousand times, but not in the last decade or two.
I have and "I learned about flying from that" even after I read about the dangers a thousand times, but not in the last decade or two.
