737 NG TOD calculation
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172 Driver, just out of curiosity, did you enter the destination waypoint prior to reaching T/C? On the 747-400, I don't think I've seen both the T/C and T/D displayed on the ND at the same time, even with a short route and STAR programmed.
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At least with 10.8A it shows on the ground. Did a couple 30 minute sectors lately with a cruise phase of around 3 to 5 minutes and the whole flight was visible including both TOC and TOD. However always with STAR and SID/IA inserted. Since that is all we have to do nowadays (route wind data is downloaded) it's usually done early during preflight.
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Well, I did some tests using your suggestions, and here are the results;
My simulated FMC is based on O.P. U10.8A
I started inserting the following route:
Origin LIMF (Turin)
Dest LIRN (Naples)
Route LAGEN UL50 ELB UM729 PNZ
Departure on Rwy 36 IC TOP6A Trans. LAGEN7L
CRZ level FL290 and filled all in the PERF INIT page and Take Off page
Ok, the route shows good and is validated from Eurocontrol CFMU.
On the ND only the Top of Climb is actually displayed as you can see in this PLAN view (I checked the complete route and no T/D is present).
The next action was to change SPD/LVL data to the last point (PNZ VOR) in accord to the expected STAR, so I changed data from the planned .750/FL290 to 240/FL100 (a minimum of 7000 ft is required after PNZ VOR), and re-checking the route (I was still on ground) finally I found the T/D point (don't know why the speed constraint is removed).
The same result was achieved inserting the DEST ICAO as last fixpoint or the rwy or a STAR/APP, but this way it seemed to me the most useful, not requiring any deletion in the next phase of flight, but just the insertion of the assigned procedure when obtained.
So what can I say?
Thanks, different of your suggestions works well on my system, from time to time now I'll choose the best depending from the situation, but I undertood something more accurate about real procedures, and maybe this simulation has some bug yet, but starts to be every day more interesting!
See you for the next question guys!
Mauro
My simulated FMC is based on O.P. U10.8A
I started inserting the following route:
Origin LIMF (Turin)
Dest LIRN (Naples)
Route LAGEN UL50 ELB UM729 PNZ
Departure on Rwy 36 IC TOP6A Trans. LAGEN7L
CRZ level FL290 and filled all in the PERF INIT page and Take Off page
Ok, the route shows good and is validated from Eurocontrol CFMU.
On the ND only the Top of Climb is actually displayed as you can see in this PLAN view (I checked the complete route and no T/D is present).
The next action was to change SPD/LVL data to the last point (PNZ VOR) in accord to the expected STAR, so I changed data from the planned .750/FL290 to 240/FL100 (a minimum of 7000 ft is required after PNZ VOR), and re-checking the route (I was still on ground) finally I found the T/D point (don't know why the speed constraint is removed).
The same result was achieved inserting the DEST ICAO as last fixpoint or the rwy or a STAR/APP, but this way it seemed to me the most useful, not requiring any deletion in the next phase of flight, but just the insertion of the assigned procedure when obtained.
So what can I say?
Thanks, different of your suggestions works well on my system, from time to time now I'll choose the best depending from the situation, but I undertood something more accurate about real procedures, and maybe this simulation has some bug yet, but starts to be every day more interesting!
See you for the next question guys!
Mauro
Last edited by zetato; 27th Oct 2012 at 13:00.
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I fly the NG with FMC version 10.8. My airline uses company routes which is basically origin navaid to destination navaid via airways without SIDS and STARS. Our SOP is to only enter approach and runway in the cruise once clearance is received. Once FMC preflight complete, the FMC indicates TOC n TOD and sets a speed and altitude automatically for the destination navaid.
It's usually something like 165/1375 at ABC. ABC is about 1.4 miles from the runway and aerodrome altitude is 1125' or thereabouts.
You don't need to enter an approach or runway to generate TOC and TOD on any of the 737s I've flown including classics. I remember this because I like to go as high as possible with about 6-8 minutes in the cruise so i check the time at TOC and TOD while still on ground to determine how high to climb.
We mostly get radar vectors so the trick I use is to create a waypoint 25nm from destination navaid and set spd/alt as 240/FL100 which kinda works out to a CDA traffic permitting.
It's usually something like 165/1375 at ABC. ABC is about 1.4 miles from the runway and aerodrome altitude is 1125' or thereabouts.
You don't need to enter an approach or runway to generate TOC and TOD on any of the 737s I've flown including classics. I remember this because I like to go as high as possible with about 6-8 minutes in the cruise so i check the time at TOC and TOD while still on ground to determine how high to climb.
We mostly get radar vectors so the trick I use is to create a waypoint 25nm from destination navaid and set spd/alt as 240/FL100 which kinda works out to a CDA traffic permitting.
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You don't need to enter an approach or runway to generate TOC and TOD on any of the 737s I've flown including classics. I remember this because I like to go as high as possible with about 6-8 minutes in the cruise so i check the time at TOC and TOD while still on ground to determine how high to climb.
Obviously it's a limitation of the simulated model, and I debated about this with the developers, but they argue that we need a point of arrival in the ROUTE or LEGS page, so then I took advantage of your expertise to find the best way to have a preventive T/D to do my calculations without having to wait for an approach clearance.
Thank you
Mauro
Last edited by zetato; 27th Oct 2012 at 13:00.
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@zetato, I read your previous posts and I understand what you meant. I think you're right in questioning the developers.
I think it's only logical that if the last navaid on the legs page is situated at the destination airport in the route page, it should calculate a descent to arrive there at a reasonable altitude to commence an approach to any runway.
I think it's only logical that if the last navaid on the legs page is situated at the destination airport in the route page, it should calculate a descent to arrive there at a reasonable altitude to commence an approach to any runway.
I had a look this evening when I went flying (-800W 10.8A ) and at the top of climb there was a TOD displayed based only on the ARP and it had us there at 60 ft and 160kts.
I am starting to think it has always been there but the sectors we fly are long enough that it never snuck into view prior to me entering a star.
We are mostly all learning something new.
I am starting to think it has always been there but the sectors we fly are long enough that it never snuck into view prior to me entering a star.
We are mostly all learning something new.
