Air India Airbus 319 Suspected Triple Hydraulic Failure
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Also further to above.When I did an A320 rating back in the early days of it's introduction the 'mechanical backup' landing was part of the training mainly I think, because 'manual reversion' was always part of any Boeing rating ( eg.737/727 ) at the time so this was meant to be the Airbus equivalent of that.
If you were set up on a stable approach on a very long straight in approach with no significant cross wind it was possible to get it on the runway. Introduce any turbulence or a cross wind more than about 5 Knots and it became virtually mission impossible!
If you were set up on a stable approach on a very long straight in approach with no significant cross wind it was possible to get it on the runway. Introduce any turbulence or a cross wind more than about 5 Knots and it became virtually mission impossible!
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Originally Posted by flydive1
1. loss of 3 hyd., knows he is screwed, gives up and dies.
2. loss of 3 hyd., doesn't know he's screwed, tries to do something, finds out he can't, gives up and dies.
2. loss of 3 hyd., doesn't know he's screwed, tries to do something, finds out he can't, gives up and dies.
[Sermon]
1. If you are still flying-there is still hope.
2. Even if you have no hydraulics, as long as you have symmetric engines on your aircraft, you have some control, but you are going to have to be smooth with the throttles and a bit analytical.
Remember what Captain Alfred C. Haynes and Captain Dennis E. Fitch were able to do with United Airlines Flight 232 after their triple hydraulic failure.
3. If you have time, you may have options. You can transfer fuel within certain limits to better balance the aircraft. If you are hauling SLF around in back, you can influence your c.g. by proper guidance of this potential asset.
4. With enough time, you might be able to use the crash axe to go through the aft bulkhead and directly influence the THS trim actuator (but that would have to be studied beforehand to have a real chance at success.)
5. You may have some small influence on the rudder although your abilities are miniscule compared to what the hydraulics can do. (Most rudders are still mechanically controlled. Depending on the design of the hydraulic system, you may be able to move the rudder a bit without hydraulics.)
6. I have posted some ideas that are bound to be controversial. Evaluate, and use at your own risk
7. Success can come to those who refuse to give up and continue working on their problems. Be mentally tough. Be prepared for the unthinkable.
[/Sermon]
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Thank you for your sermon Machbird.(I also have no Boeing or Airbus time)
I'm not the one saying you are screwed if you loose the hydraulics.
Plenty of people above flying the aircraft said so, that you can kiss your ass good bye.
My comment was that if that is the situation, then knowing that you have no manual back-up or not won't change much, and to the comments that you do not know that you should not be flying and you probably do not know much about the aircraft.
I believe all, or at least most, pilot will try all to save themselves, the aircraft and in the process the passengers.
I'm not the one saying you are screwed if you loose the hydraulics.
Plenty of people above flying the aircraft said so, that you can kiss your ass good bye.
My comment was that if that is the situation, then knowing that you have no manual back-up or not won't change much, and to the comments that you do not know that you should not be flying and you probably do not know much about the aircraft.
I believe all, or at least most, pilot will try all to save themselves, the aircraft and in the process the passengers.
Last edited by flydive1; 15th Jul 2012 at 07:09.
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"An additional method on the A320 is to use the electric rudder trim to control laterally - it requires no hydraulics."
Think you had better have a closer look at the schematics regarding Yaw control...its electric motor 1 or 2, through an artificial feel device, then through the hydraulic jacks to the surface...
Think you had better have a closer look at the schematics regarding Yaw control...its electric motor 1 or 2, through an artificial feel device, then through the hydraulic jacks to the surface...
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No you're incorrect, I tested it today, on the ground, with no hydraulic power and it works, for definite. It's electric. The schematic doesn't actually show it operating through the hydraulics. If in doubt try it before you next start engines.
Last edited by BlackandBrown; 15th Jul 2012 at 14:24.
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The digital position indicator in the flight deck pedestal changes, did the control surface move? was there residual yellow pressure from cargo door closing??...
Last edited by ironbutt57; 15th Jul 2012 at 14:32.
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"An additional method on the A320 is to use the electric rudder trim to control laterally - it requires no hydraulics."
Here we go again....
All from the FCOM:
Flight control surfaces are all:
‐ Electrically-controlled, and
‐ Hydraulically-activated
The stabilizer and rudder can also be mechanically-controlled
Not mechanically/electronically activated. (my comment)
Again:
Note: All surfaces are hydraulically actuated.
Check ANY schematics of the flight controls / rudder and you will see that there is NO electrical motor or direct mechanical way of moving the rudder without hydraulic pressure.
The rudder trim simply sends a signal to the FACs (nr 1 for normal ops and nr 2 as backup) and the signals are then sent to the HYDRAULIC JACKS.
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Sans hyd pressure, primary surface does not move, the pedestal indicator will indicate a command, but the surface cannot move, as previously stated!
I have the A330 Vacbi CD running on my PC now.
Assuming the 320 is similar. I know it isn't as there are no FCPCs or FCSCs but you get the gist, substitute ELACs/SECs/FACs as appropriate.
The ELECTRICAL Rudder trim actuators drive the HYDRAULIC servo controls through the feel unit and differential mechanism.
The servo units are operated by spring rods.
Position feedback to the FCPCs (and the FCSCs) is from Transducer Units that give position information of the rudder pedals.
From the schematic, rudder trim will move the pedals too so I can only assume that the trim position indication is coming from that and not from the Transducer Units on the rudder itself. They are for the rudder indication on the flt controls display, I think.
It is not clear (from my rudementary study at this time of night while watching Ellen Ripley kick the arse of another Alien) whether or not there is sufficient movement and robustness in the servo controls input rods to actually deflect the rudder in the event of a triple hydraulic failure. I suspect not or I'm sure Monseur (sp) Airbus would have labled it in big red letters.
No Hydraulics = No Flight controls. Sorry.
Assuming the 320 is similar. I know it isn't as there are no FCPCs or FCSCs but you get the gist, substitute ELACs/SECs/FACs as appropriate.
The ELECTRICAL Rudder trim actuators drive the HYDRAULIC servo controls through the feel unit and differential mechanism.
The servo units are operated by spring rods.
Position feedback to the FCPCs (and the FCSCs) is from Transducer Units that give position information of the rudder pedals.
From the schematic, rudder trim will move the pedals too so I can only assume that the trim position indication is coming from that and not from the Transducer Units on the rudder itself. They are for the rudder indication on the flt controls display, I think.
It is not clear (from my rudementary study at this time of night while watching Ellen Ripley kick the arse of another Alien) whether or not there is sufficient movement and robustness in the servo controls input rods to actually deflect the rudder in the event of a triple hydraulic failure. I suspect not or I'm sure Monseur (sp) Airbus would have labled it in big red letters.
No Hydraulics = No Flight controls. Sorry.
Last edited by TURIN; 15th Jul 2012 at 23:39.
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Right lads, you with the Microsoft flight sims, **** off smartly.
If you want to contribute here, go out there, get yer licenses, get a job, and slug it out with the rest of us on a day-to-day basis, in shiite weather, broken airplanes, and low pay
Until that time, yer just another John Travolta.
Gayly we fly, trala feckin la...
No microsoft flight sim here my friend, TRI 4000+ PIC...validating my discussion with a previous poster to try and ascertain his findings....no hydraulics, no movement, trim indicator in cockpit indicates command, as does the cyan trim indication on the fly control page, however the rudder does not move....cheers!!!
If you want to contribute here, go out there, get yer licenses, get a job, and slug it out with the rest of us on a day-to-day basis, in shiite weather, broken airplanes, and low pay
Until that time, yer just another John Travolta.
Gayly we fly, trala feckin la...
No microsoft flight sim here my friend, TRI 4000+ PIC...validating my discussion with a previous poster to try and ascertain his findings....no hydraulics, no movement, trim indicator in cockpit indicates command, as does the cyan trim indication on the fly control page, however the rudder does not move....cheers!!!
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It's quite simple, look at the rudder! No 'trim' tab visible? The the only way of trimming is through the primary flight actuators. You can't 'fly' the rudder if it doesn't have a trim tab.
Trim tabs are aerodynamically 'dirty' thus the primary flight controls are used instead.
You will still see a 'trim' demand signal through the PFC's as the system is designed to show you what the computer is demanding.
Unfortunately as there is no Hydraulic pressure at the primary actuator, the surface won't move/trim.
Back to differential thrust.
(ATPL A+H, 10,000+, No MSFS my computers too slow!)
Trim tabs are aerodynamically 'dirty' thus the primary flight controls are used instead.
You will still see a 'trim' demand signal through the PFC's as the system is designed to show you what the computer is demanding.
Unfortunately as there is no Hydraulic pressure at the primary actuator, the surface won't move/trim.
Back to differential thrust.
(ATPL A+H, 10,000+, No MSFS my computers too slow!)
Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 16th Jul 2012 at 09:32. Reason: spellunk!
Right lads, you with the Microsoft flight sims, **** off smartly.
If you want to contribute here, go out there, get yer licenses, get a job, and slug it out with the rest of us on a day-to-day basis, in shiite weather, broken airplanes, and low pay
Until that time, yer just another John Travolta.
Gayly we fly, trala feckin la...
No microsoft flight sim here my friend, TRI 4000+ PIC...validating my discussion with a previous poster to try and ascertain his findings....no hydraulics, no movement, trim indicator in cockpit indicates command, as does the cyan trim indication on the fly control page, however the rudder does not move....cheers!!!
If you want to contribute here, go out there, get yer licenses, get a job, and slug it out with the rest of us on a day-to-day basis, in shiite weather, broken airplanes, and low pay
Until that time, yer just another John Travolta.
Gayly we fly, trala feckin la...
No microsoft flight sim here my friend, TRI 4000+ PIC...validating my discussion with a previous poster to try and ascertain his findings....no hydraulics, no movement, trim indicator in cockpit indicates command, as does the cyan trim indication on the fly control page, however the rudder does not move....cheers!!!
