AF 447 Thread No. 9
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AF 447 Thread No. 9
AF 447 Thread No. 9
Thread part -
(a) #1 starts here and finishes here. Posts = 3890
(b) #2 starts here and finishes here. Posts = 2537
(c) #3 starts here and finishes here. Posts = 2071
(d) #4 starts here and finishes here. Posts = 1061
(e) #5 starts here and finishes here. Posts = 1978
(f) #6 starts here and finishes here. Posts = 1683
(g) #7 starts here and finishes here. Posts = 1354
(h) #8 starts here and finishes here. Posts = 1550
Links to the various BEA reports are given below. If I have missed any of the useful papers, please PM me with the URL and I can include it.
(a) BEA site - French, English
- Report link page - French, English
(b) Interim Report (No, 1) Jul 2, 2009 - English
(c) Interim Report No. 2 Dec 17, 2009 - English
- Update Dec 17, 2009 - French, English
(d) Estimating the wreckage location Jun 30, 2010
(e) Wreckage search analysis Jan 20, 2011
(f) Briefing and associated update May 27, 2011
- Briefing - update French
- Briefing - update English
- Briefing - update German
- Briefing - update Portugese
(g) Interim Report No. 3 July 2011 - French, English
Miscellaneous pertinent links -
(a) Airbus Operations Golden Rules
(b) ALPA FBW Primer
(c) C* and Civil Transports - Cranfield
(d) Longitudinal Flight Control Design - RAeS
(e) Longitudinal Stability: Effect of High Altitude and CG - Boeing
(f) pitot static system performance - USN (Pax River) FTM
(g) The Problem of Automation: Inappropriate Feedback and Interaction, Not Over-Automation. Donald A. Norman UCSD
(h) Upset Recovery - 16MB zip file
(i) Ironies of Automation. Lisanne Bainbridge UCL
(j) Cognitive Capability of Humans. Christopher Wickens Uni Illinois
(k) Trust in Automation: Designing for Appropriate Reliance John D. Lee, Katrina A. See; Human Factors, Vol. 46, 2004
(l) Training for New Technology. John Bent - Cathay Neil Krey's CRM site
Search hint: You can search PPRuNe threads with a filter in Google by using the following search string example -
ths af447 site:http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/
This will search for mentions of THS in the AF447 threads of tech log only.
Just change the THS in the string to whatever you want to look for. This allows one to search for any term or phrase of interest throughout the threads.
Adding the site:URL end part is the magic that restricts Google to only searching in Tech Log.
This filter technique is absolutely wonderful and can be used generically to find things of interest in PPRuNe - appears to work OK in the PPRuNe search function as well.
In respect of Google searching, JenCluse has added some suggestions -
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Thread part -
(a) #1 starts here and finishes here. Posts = 3890
(b) #2 starts here and finishes here. Posts = 2537
(c) #3 starts here and finishes here. Posts = 2071
(d) #4 starts here and finishes here. Posts = 1061
(e) #5 starts here and finishes here. Posts = 1978
(f) #6 starts here and finishes here. Posts = 1683
(g) #7 starts here and finishes here. Posts = 1354
(h) #8 starts here and finishes here. Posts = 1550
Links to the various BEA reports are given below. If I have missed any of the useful papers, please PM me with the URL and I can include it.
(a) BEA site - French, English
- Report link page - French, English
(b) Interim Report (No, 1) Jul 2, 2009 - English
(c) Interim Report No. 2 Dec 17, 2009 - English
- Update Dec 17, 2009 - French, English
(d) Estimating the wreckage location Jun 30, 2010
(e) Wreckage search analysis Jan 20, 2011
(f) Briefing and associated update May 27, 2011
- Briefing - update French
- Briefing - update English
- Briefing - update German
- Briefing - update Portugese
(g) Interim Report No. 3 July 2011 - French, English
Miscellaneous pertinent links -
(a) Airbus Operations Golden Rules
(b) ALPA FBW Primer
(c) C* and Civil Transports - Cranfield
(d) Longitudinal Flight Control Design - RAeS
(e) Longitudinal Stability: Effect of High Altitude and CG - Boeing
(f) pitot static system performance - USN (Pax River) FTM
(g) The Problem of Automation: Inappropriate Feedback and Interaction, Not Over-Automation. Donald A. Norman UCSD
(h) Upset Recovery - 16MB zip file
(i) Ironies of Automation. Lisanne Bainbridge UCL
(j) Cognitive Capability of Humans. Christopher Wickens Uni Illinois
(k) Trust in Automation: Designing for Appropriate Reliance John D. Lee, Katrina A. See; Human Factors, Vol. 46, 2004
(l) Training for New Technology. John Bent - Cathay Neil Krey's CRM site
Search hint: You can search PPRuNe threads with a filter in Google by using the following search string example -
ths af447 site:http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/
This will search for mentions of THS in the AF447 threads of tech log only.
Just change the THS in the string to whatever you want to look for. This allows one to search for any term or phrase of interest throughout the threads.
Adding the site:URL end part is the magic that restricts Google to only searching in Tech Log.
This filter technique is absolutely wonderful and can be used generically to find things of interest in PPRuNe - appears to work OK in the PPRuNe search function as well.
In respect of Google searching, JenCluse has added some suggestions -
a) indenting the text block with a (one) Tab, *and*
b) emphasizing the fact that it is a search text block with some manner of . . .
<SearchText>, or
"SearchText", or
?SearchText?, etc
Moderator
Thread Starter
The BEA site suggests early afternoon.
However, I've had a long week so it's off to bed for me, I'm afraid.
However, I've had a long week so it's off to bed for me, I'm afraid.
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Hi,
Keep monitoring this page
FLIGHT AF 447
So it's in one hour from now (local time)
Dunno if the report will be posted same time
Keep monitoring this page
FLIGHT AF 447
A media presentation will take place at the Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace in Le Bourget at 2.30 pm
Dunno if the report will be posted same time
Last edited by jcjeant; 5th Jul 2012 at 11:33.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinbird
BEA has not yet provided spoiler and aileron position data, so analysis of the causal aspect is not yet possible.
Carried over from Thread No. 8
Clandestino, look at the data you suggested and blow it up until you can see the shape of the curves. You cannot using that data. Not enough pixels to see anything.
Just a bunch of blocks. I do not call that disclosure of the data.
Originally Posted by Machinbird
BEA has not yet provided spoiler and aileron position data, so analysis of the causal aspect is not yet possible.
Carried over from Thread No. 8
Originally Posted by Clandestino
Well, if it doesn't make it to the final report, you can always use page 112 of interim 3: lateral DFDR parameters. Ailerons and spoilers staunchly followed the sidesticks, their periods of fluttering like mad were occasionally interrupted by full LWD deflection with not much apparent effect, as expected in stall.
Just a bunch of blocks. I do not call that disclosure of the data.
Due roughness, one can't use graphs to derive control rates but positions can clearly be seen.
Would you please extend your roll/roll rate graph a minute into the future? Graphs on pages 30 and 31 are smooth & high-res, you can't object to that.
Would you please extend your roll/roll rate graph a minute into the future? Graphs on pages 30 and 31 are smooth & high-res, you can't object to that.
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briefing live with on the fly translation on the BBC: BBC News - Air France 2009 Paris-Rio crash final report released
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So in terms of changes to aircraft systems:
FDs need to be changed in terms of their appearance in marginal systems behaviour
Stall Warning needs to be overhauled including dedicated visual channel and to operate in cases of low speed
Feedback in terms of systems failures (presumably ECAM) needs to be clarified and improved
Some certification changes will also be recommended.
So - any claims of a whitewash putting the finger solely on pilot error from this point onwards are clearly false.
[UPDATE - Claims final report will include computed FD commands, which should please some who wanted that information...]
FDs need to be changed in terms of their appearance in marginal systems behaviour
Stall Warning needs to be overhauled including dedicated visual channel and to operate in cases of low speed
Feedback in terms of systems failures (presumably ECAM) needs to be clarified and improved
Some certification changes will also be recommended.
So - any claims of a whitewash putting the finger solely on pilot error from this point onwards are clearly false.
[UPDATE - Claims final report will include computed FD commands, which should please some who wanted that information...]
Last edited by DozyWannabe; 5th Jul 2012 at 13:09.
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GMT is UT-12h
Hello pcoletti,
... Just to be accurate :
14h30 local time in France (metropole=Paris) is
12h30 UT and also
00h30 GMT (reference for astronomy : the day starts at noon the sun passing the Greenwich meridian at 00h00 true solar time # 00h04m40s GMT 5.july2012) . (International convention)
... I have noting against UK !
roulishollandais (enjoying with sundials...)
... Just to be accurate :
14h30 local time in France (metropole=Paris) is
12h30 UT and also
00h30 GMT (reference for astronomy : the day starts at noon the sun passing the Greenwich meridian at 00h00 true solar time # 00h04m40s GMT 5.july2012) . (International convention)
... I have noting against UK !
roulishollandais (enjoying with sundials...)
Last edited by roulishollandais; 6th Jul 2012 at 20:59. Reason: 5.july 2012 JJ day changes at 00h00 true solar time,00h04m40s
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from Beeb
Technical failure and human error led to the loss of an Air France flight over the Atlantic in June 2009 and the deaths of 228 people, according to the final report into the crash.
The report by France's aviation authority, the BEA, says the crew did not react correctly after the Airbus A330 had technical failures.
It disappeared from radars while en route to Paris from Rio de Janeiro.
It took nearly two years for the flight recorders to be found.
Thursday's findings are in line with a preliminary report released last year by the BEA.
That report said the pilots did not follow the proper procedures after the aircraft's speed sensors - called Pitot tubes - failed during a storm two hours after take-off.
The plane stalled and lost altitude, the report said, and the captain did not retake control of the plane after taking a rest.
One of the mistakes of the crew, according to investigators, was to point the nose of the aircraft upwards, after it stalled, instead of down.
Manslaughter claims
Investigators have found fault with both Airbus and Air France, sparking a row between the two firms over their accountability for the crash.
Both companies are under investigation by French magistrates for alleged manslaughter.
A separate judicial report will be released next week. This is also expected to echo Thursday's report by the BEA, the French news agency AFP says.
Since the crash, Air France has replaced the speed sensors on its fleet of Airbus jets - made by the French firm Thales - with a newer model.
The wreckage of the plane was discovered after a long search of 10,000 sq km (3,860 sq miles) of sea floor.
After 23 months of searching, robot submarines finally found the flight "black box" recorders last year.
Technical failure and human error led to the loss of an Air France flight over the Atlantic in June 2009 and the deaths of 228 people, according to the final report into the crash.
The report by France's aviation authority, the BEA, says the crew did not react correctly after the Airbus A330 had technical failures.
It disappeared from radars while en route to Paris from Rio de Janeiro.
It took nearly two years for the flight recorders to be found.
Thursday's findings are in line with a preliminary report released last year by the BEA.
That report said the pilots did not follow the proper procedures after the aircraft's speed sensors - called Pitot tubes - failed during a storm two hours after take-off.
The plane stalled and lost altitude, the report said, and the captain did not retake control of the plane after taking a rest.
One of the mistakes of the crew, according to investigators, was to point the nose of the aircraft upwards, after it stalled, instead of down.
Manslaughter claims
Investigators have found fault with both Airbus and Air France, sparking a row between the two firms over their accountability for the crash.
Both companies are under investigation by French magistrates for alleged manslaughter.
A separate judicial report will be released next week. This is also expected to echo Thursday's report by the BEA, the French news agency AFP says.
Since the crash, Air France has replaced the speed sensors on its fleet of Airbus jets - made by the French firm Thales - with a newer model.
The wreckage of the plane was discovered after a long search of 10,000 sq km (3,860 sq miles) of sea floor.
After 23 months of searching, robot submarines finally found the flight "black box" recorders last year.
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GMT
roulishollandais
... Just to be accurate :
14h30 local time in France (metropole=Paris) is
12h30 UT and also
00h30 GMT
Rather a surprise to us brits, who are told that they use GMT half the year.
More specifically, from wikipedia
Historically the term GMT has been used with two different conventions, sometimes numbering hours starting at midnight
and sometimes starting at noon. The more specific terms UT and UTC do not share this ambiguity, always referring to
midnight as zero hours. Astronomers preferred the latter GMT convention in order to simplify their observational data
so that each entire night was logged under a single calendar date.
... Just to be accurate :
14h30 local time in France (metropole=Paris) is
12h30 UT and also
00h30 GMT
Rather a surprise to us brits, who are told that they use GMT half the year.
More specifically, from wikipedia
Historically the term GMT has been used with two different conventions, sometimes numbering hours starting at midnight
and sometimes starting at noon. The more specific terms UT and UTC do not share this ambiguity, always referring to
midnight as zero hours. Astronomers preferred the latter GMT convention in order to simplify their observational data
so that each entire night was logged under a single calendar date.
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Good update on Simon's site: Crash: Air France A332 over Atlantic on Jun 1st 2009, aircraft entered high altitude stall and impacted ocean
New thread compared to previous interim reports, which partially explains crew's behavior is that Flight Director was constantly suggesting the crew to raise aircraft's nose.
New thread compared to previous interim reports, which partially explains crew's behavior is that Flight Director was constantly suggesting the crew to raise aircraft's nose.
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Aviation Herald already has a summary of the presentation and the Q&A session. Most remarkable to me:
- The flight directors provided indications to increase the nose up attitude.
- During the final 4 minutes of flight the flight directors disappeared and reappeared multiple times.
- The flight directors were NOT disengaged as they SHOULD have been.
- The modus of flight director operation is being further looked into.
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Final report (26 MB, Not finished downloading)
http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp...p090601.en.pdf
Web page for download mirrors and french
Rapport final
Enjoy ....
.
http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp...p090601.en.pdf
Web page for download mirrors and french
Rapport final
Enjoy ....
.
Last edited by alph2z; 5th Jul 2012 at 14:39.
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Not quite accurate. The presentation stated that the FDs indicated "slight nose-up" (presumably 5 degrees) at the point of Stall Warning activation. If they were indeed indicating 5 degrees then the FDs would have been ordering an initial small nose-up command followed by maintaining the 5 degree attitude. What was in fact commanded by the PF was a nose-up to almost 15 degrees within five seconds - way in excess of what the FD was displaying.
Last edited by DozyWannabe; 5th Jul 2012 at 14:50.