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AF 447 Thread No. 9

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AF 447 Thread No. 9

Old 5th Jul 2012, 20:53
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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jcjeant

Agree.

As I said before, no-one thinks it odd that it's legal (certified) to have an autopilot that under certain conditions in cruise gives back control of the plane to the pilots. The same conditions in which the pilots are not trained to fly the plane.
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Old 5th Jul 2012, 21:03
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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On Basics

Hi,

Bill Macgillivray:


A basic (and old) mandatory skill is aviate your plane. AoA is ESSENTIAL (to fly non rotary wing a/c).

This VERY BASIC "detail" was simply not "respected".

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Old 5th Jul 2012, 21:14
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Read the CVR transcript... Appendix 1

This is a chilling read, but I think brings the lack of understanding of what the aircraft was doing into sharp focus. From everything I can tell the whole verbiage is there. It is not a happy read at all.
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Old 5th Jul 2012, 21:17
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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I thought it was interesting relative to the point that visual cues take precedent in the human mind over aural cues in time of stressful situations.

Clandestino quote: It is all very nice for PPRuNers or investigation boards to ask for better UAS detection and resolution systems but without some creative genius coming with the idea of how they should be made, we won't get far.
In the WSJ today:
For next year, the company (Boeing) is poised to test an array of modifications on one of its 787 Dreamliner models, according to industry and company officials. Boeing flight tests of the 787 next year are likely to include a new cockpit-safety feature aimed at helping pilots recover from stalls or other unusual maneuvers that could cause them to lose control of the aircraft, officials said.

The proposed system for the 787 provides instant and prominent visual cues - consisting of brightly colored arrows popping up on cockpit displays - to help pilots recover from flight upsets or other extreme situations that may prompt them to be confused about a plane's automation or trajectory.

Developed by Honeywell International Inc. in conjunction with Boeing, the proposed warnings are intended to advise pilots how to manipulate a plane's controls in an emergency by giving the pilots clear-cut directions that are not available on current Boeing models. If Boeing offers such enhancements, airlines are likely to embrace them because the system is projected to require only relatively inexpensive software upgrades to existing flight-control hardware and cockpit displays.
The article talks about more improvements to be tested on a 737 as well as changes to GE and or CFMI engines that will improve upon fuel consumption efficiency.
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Old 5th Jul 2012, 21:24
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Cool

The proposed system for the 787 provides instant and prominent visual cues - consisting of brightly colored arrows popping up on cockpit displays - to help pilots recover from flight upsets or other extreme situations that may prompt them to be confused about a plane's automation or trajectory.
To note that this kind of cues are already implemented in many video games
Of course .. it's more easy to implement those in a video game instead a airliner
Would be the future of flying be a kind of video game
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Old 5th Jul 2012, 21:34
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Great news

Great news coming from R&D. With a powerful "man-machine interface tool" to crews "near the edge". (as such was the case in AF447 before put a/c in full stall)

Thanks for very important information at a "right moment" for us here. BEA "final report day".
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Old 5th Jul 2012, 21:46
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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I think Boeing missed the point. If they need school-kid directions because the pilots are overwhelmed with data, maybe they'd be better addressing the cause rather than finding yet another piece of data to flash at them?

Besides - the FD bars on the AF jet were commanding a CLIMB, so how are Boeing's magic arrows going to react any differently under the same situation?

How about a declutter function - HIDE all but the MOST important data, and silence alarms? Blank screens if you have to.

Last edited by ECAM_Actions; 5th Jul 2012 at 21:47.
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Old 5th Jul 2012, 22:12
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Near the edge

A well developed SW together Air Speed DSP could improve easily the current situation.

As far i can imagine, the idea of the info TD bring us is to simplify crew work in abnormalities.

Your 3 questions are important. We need to wait.

Last edited by Jetdriver; 6th Jul 2012 at 05:12.
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Old 5th Jul 2012, 22:23
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Hi jcjeant,
Would be the future of flying be a kind of video game
Yup, only a matter of time as the pace of technology continues on its rapid pace. Maybe not in our lifetime, but, if your great-grandson or great-granddaughter aspires to be a pilot, this is a preview of the future. There is already a shortage of these "pilots"....

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Old 5th Jul 2012, 22:31
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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RR_NDB,

Re: Great News

I though you would like this!
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Old 5th Jul 2012, 22:48
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ECAM_Actions View Post
Besides - the FD bars on the AF jet were commanding a CLIMB...
5 degrees nose-up at FL350 or thereabouts - which is what the flight directors showed at the time of SW - is *not* a climb at cruise thrust.
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Old 5th Jul 2012, 23:11
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Newbie question

Hello All, I am a newbie and an airline enthusiast. I used to work for an airline but in their IT so I don't claim any knowledge of powered (or unpowered) flight.

I have been keeping track of this case ever since it happened.

I saw this in the news today and signed up on this forum just to ask this one question. I read the cockpit recorder transcript here.

Air France 447 Flight-Data Recorder Transcript - What Really Happened Aboard Air France 447 - Popular Mechanics

What ruled out the possibility that the Bonin guy was not suicidal?

This is a reasonable question, given that several crashes over the years have had such implications, so I'll let it stand.

However, please let's not venture into conspiracist realms .. JT
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Old 5th Jul 2012, 23:14
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But the aeroplane had not encountered, before or during the accident, an exceptional meteorological situation from the point of view of phenomena that are traditionally avoided in stormy environments (turbulence, lightning, icing).
Hope that puts an end to the "thunderstorm" brigade. It is deemed to have been "nothing exceptional", though the wise decision would have been to avoid it.

....the presence of flight envelope protections makes neutral longitudinal static stability acceptable. ....It appears that this absence of positive static stability could have contributed to the PF not identifying the approach to stall.
A bit of a "soft" excuse when you've already managed to dump most of the kinetic energy available.

Machinbird;

Your PIO roll proposition appears to have been confirmed.

Last edited by mm43; 5th Jul 2012 at 23:15.
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Old 5th Jul 2012, 23:26
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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In the CVR transcript I notice some PNC call during event ..
2H10.55
2H10.59
2H11.02
2H11.24
2H11.30
It may be that PNC was concerned that something was abnormal ....

Last edited by jcjeant; 5th Jul 2012 at 23:26.
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Old 5th Jul 2012, 23:32
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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It's a very well written report, only typo I noticed in the English version was on bottom of P151 "mark range" should be "Mach range".
Well, I didn't even make it past the first two pages before discovering this gem:

As accurate as the translation may be, the original text in French is the work or reference
back to the actual report...
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Old 5th Jul 2012, 23:56
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by justthisonce View Post
What ruled out the possibility that the Bonin guy was not suicidal?

This is a reasonable question, given that several crashes over the years have had such implications, so I'll let it stand.

However, please let's not venture into conspiracist realms .. JT
Will do JT.

The CVR transcript looks all wrong for a deliberate attempt to sabotage the flight. Bonin's words reflect a mindset of being gradually overwhelmed by a problem, and increasing anxiety as the situation worsens. In every case of suicide/homicide in aviation I know of, the perpetrator has never betrayed anxiety - instead becoming task-focused and shutting out all extraneous human interaction.

Also his wife was on board - they were both returning from a holiday to Brazil which if anything seemed to lighten Bonin's mood based on second-hand evidence.

Everything else aside, all evidence indicates a pilot who tragically got out of his depth and was spooked enough to try the wrong thing over and over.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 00:09
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mm43
Machinbird;

Your PIO roll proposition appears to have been confirmed.
Thank you for the heads up. Haven't yet had the time to read the report.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 00:55
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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This is a chilling read, but I think brings the lack of understanding of what the aircraft was doing into sharp focus. From everything I can tell the whole verbiage is there. It is not a happy read at all.
I've read through the report and the appendix (just one time) and honestly I'm none the wiser than I was after the report a year ago.

Fundamentally, there are three pilots flying one of the best aircraft in the world and they put it in the water. What I do not comprehend is why they did not comprehend.

All the final report offers is speculation.

(!) we’re going to crash
This can’t be true
It was true and it's about the only thing I am confidant of.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 01:26
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Appendices

I can't seem to find a download with all the appendices.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 01:33
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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a tremendous amount of basic flying skills are no longer required to be taught.
It's worse than that. A tremendous amount is deemed either unneccessary or too expensive by the bean counters. Some operators insist the automation is used to get the absolute cheapest operation of the aircraft, and the bean counters do statistical analysis on the cost of training for some scenarios against the cost of the incident should it happen.

This is only the tip of the iceberg, and this incident is Airbus' Titanic, they have some serious soul searching to do in many areas.
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