Calling V1 Early vs Vmcg

[ImbracableCrunk]

BOAC wrote:

One sincerely hopes that is writ in your SOPs? Oh yes, I forgot, when your lot call it they don't mean V1, do they, they mean V1-5/'gee here comes V1', so that's ok and I guess it is ok to call it (but not with me).

Why not ask your FOI if he is happy with this?

My thought is that since some CAs take their hands off of the TLs at the V1 call like they've been burned, it's not a, "Here it coo-ooomes," but rather a limit.

I thought I'd do the relatively anonymous thing and ask the PPRUNE Tribe for thoughts before I go beyond annoying a few instructors.

[aerobat77]

So, can we agree that V1 should not be called below Vmcg in a B737?

well, basicly of course yes. V1 or above by regulations ist the speed where you must continue the take off. and how do you want to manage this when you are still below vmcg and simply not able to hold the aircraft on the runway with a failure on the one side and toga on the other?

I thought I'd do the relatively anonymous thing and ask the PPRUNE Tribe for thoughts before I go beyond annoying a few instructors.

no, i dont think you will annoy them when you go for an open discussion about this and ask about their opinion . the same should be true when you ask your captain in a calm minute at cruise .

but i can only recommend you not to go with the attitude that they are wrong because you confirmed this by pprune.

[Tee Emm]

The example I like is when I see pilots driving past Vr (and approaching V2 quite rapidly) and still not rotating... only because the guy next to them missed the Vr call.

What a coincidence. Saw the same thing recently in simulator. PM called 80 knots as per SOP and received "check" standard acknowledgement from PF.

PM then failed to call V1 and VR (on purpose) to see if PF rotated on his own bugged ASI. PF did SFA and simply stayed on the runway until at V2 plus 35 knots (no, that is not an exaggeration) the runway end was fast approaching. Even then student did not rotate until the over-run when he dragged aircraft airborne around 180 knots (VR 130 knots!)

This problem with both new and experienced pilots is more common in simulator training than many people realise. It should be emphasised in early training that these are support calls - not action calls. One classic similar thing I saw was training overseas pilots in the simulator. The airline that was paying for their training encouraged lots of talking in the cockpit under the guise of lots of talking meant good CRM - which is rubbish of course.

One of the host airline SOP was the PM would call the word 'Stabilised" when the captain had set the thrust levers to 40 percent N1 immediately prior to pressing TOGA. It was an unnecessary call but as I said the company liked the idea of more or less fly-by-mouth "support" calls.

A note was passed to the PM saying don't call "Stabilised". Now you aren't going to believe this but it happened. The experienced 737 captain released the brakes and pushed the thrust levers to 40 percent N1. The 737 slowly trundled down the runway at 40 percent N1. About 30 seconds later with the ground speed showing around 45 knots and a thousand feet of runway behind the aircraft, the captain looked across the cockpit and said in an accusatory voice "Hey! You forgot to call `Stabilised`....

Proof positive that even experienced captains can make a fool of themselves. Airmanship? Belongs to another era.

[Basil]

TM,

PM then failed to call V1 and VR (on purpose) to see if PF rotated on his own bugged ASI.

Once reached my bugged Vr and commenced (slow) rotation. At my bug +10 PNF called 'Rotate'
Yes, my bug was set 10kn too low and neither of us had noticed