L-1011 crew

[aterpster]

thermostat:

As for the SO vs FE question, the SO was a pilot (P3) and the FE was a mechanic (no pilot licence). Different airlines used one or the other.
I didn't know the L1011 was still being used by airlines, thought they were all gone to bed.

Whether the F/E was also a pilot was a matter of union contracts and/or airline policy. There was no such thing in a L1011 as a second officer so far as the FAA was concerned.

At TWA mechanic F/Es were hired before 1960 or so. After 1963 (the next hiring cycle) everyone was hired to be a pilot, but many had to serve their time in the F/E seat, whether 707, 727, L1011, or early 747s. None of them were called SOs. The company trained them to be F/Es.

[glhcarl]

Too bad, for it was such a beautiful bird. With the DLC (direct lift control) the approach and landing were so easy.
Unfortunately Lockheed got rid of the moulds and refused to allow other manufacturers to copy the DLC system.

Anyone with an L-1011 Maintenance Manual has more than enough information to reverse engineer the L-1011 Direct Lift Control (DLC) system. However, without a flying stabilizer like the TriStar DLC is just going to function like it does on the TriStar.

[aterpster]

glhcarl:

Anyone with an L-1011 Maintenance Manual has more than enough information to reverse engineer the L-1011 Direct Lift Control (DLC) system. However, without a flying stabilizer like the TriStar DLC is just going to function like it does on the TriStar.

That does not quite make sense. Sounds like you are saying DLC without a flying stabilizer is going to function just like the TriStar with a flying stabilizer.

Or, am I reading it wrong?

I have a lot of time in the 1011 but I hardly had a maintenance or engineering level of knowledge. I sure did learn how to make the best use of DLC, though, when hand-flying an approach and landing (which we did a whole lot in those days.)

[thermostat]

L1011 FE

Aterpster, thanks for the info. I also had FE's on the 1011. However on the B727 we had SO's in the back seat.

[aterpster]

thermostat:

I don't know what country you were operating in, but the 727 was the same as a L1011 in certification and FAA rules. The guy who sat sideways at that big, funny panel was required to have an appropriate F/E certificate. He did not have to have a pilot's certificate of any type whatsover.

Your company and/or union may have elected some additonal non-regulatory requirements for the F/E position. That often did happen. But, nonetheless, the FAA didn't recognize SO for that seat, other than perhaps on an ad hoc, local FAA basis.

I was captain on both types for a lot of time at TWA.

[glhcarl]

ateraster:

Or, am I reading it wrong?

You read it right.

But I wrote it wrong.

Should have read: without a flying stabilizer like the TriStar DLC is just "NOT" going to function like it does on the TriStar.

[dhardesthard]

S/O vs F/E.

I believe what is confusing a lot of people is the term used to describe the systems panel operator on L-1011(TriStar) 727,707,DC8 etc. The individual is not controlling (flying)the A/C. He/she is actually carrying out the function of a flight engineer. Some airlines(including mine) hire pilots and train them (and licence them) to operate the panel so to recognise this they call them pilot engineers (P/E) or third pilots(P3) or a second officer(S/O). Whether the crew member has a flying background or not he is performing the function of a flight engineer. So to sum it up.....S/O, P3 or third pilots are actually flight engineers, what they are called is academic. The individual is operating on a flight engineer's licence and not a pilot's licence.