A Question Regarding the Chicago Convention
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From: Gone Flying...
Chicago Convention, a question about compliance
According to the Chicago Convention's (ICAO DOC7300)
and
I would like to ask for your opinion on this:
Having in mind Article 11 and specially Article 12 one would say that an EU registred aircraft, demanding another "state" like the USA, would have to comply with FARs and if demanding Brazil, for instance, would have to comply with RBHA.
Why then, are we (EU-OPS Registered companies) allowed to fly under our own policies to non EU states?
We have different minimums, different fuel policies, different holding paterns, etc.
Are there any written agreements that allow us to fly under our own policies to other Chicago Convention contracting states?
Thanks for your opinions.
A.
Article 11
Applicability of air regulations
Subject to the provisions of this Convention, the laws and regulations of a contracting State relating to the admission to or departure from its territory of aircraft engaged in international air navigation, or to the operation and navigation of aircraft while within its territory, shall be applied to the aircraft
of all contracting States without distinction as to nationality, and shall be complied with by such aircraft upon entering or departing from or while within the territory of that State.
Applicability of air regulations
Subject to the provisions of this Convention, the laws and regulations of a contracting State relating to the admission to or departure from its territory of aircraft engaged in international air navigation, or to the operation and navigation of aircraft while within its territory, shall be applied to the aircraft
of all contracting States without distinction as to nationality, and shall be complied with by such aircraft upon entering or departing from or while within the territory of that State.
Article 12
Rules of the air
Each contracting State undertakes to adopt measures to
insure that every aircraft flying over or maneuvering within its
territory and that every aircraft carrying its nationality mark,
wherever such aircraft may be, shall comply with the rules and
regulations relating to the flight and maneuver of aircraft there
in force. Each contracting State undertakes to keep its own
regulations in these respects uniform, to the greatest possible
extent, with those established from time to time under this
Convention. Over the high seas, the rules in force shall be those
established under this Convention. Each contracting State
undertakes to insure the prosecution of all persons violating the
regulations applicable.
Rules of the air
Each contracting State undertakes to adopt measures to
insure that every aircraft flying over or maneuvering within its
territory and that every aircraft carrying its nationality mark,
wherever such aircraft may be, shall comply with the rules and
regulations relating to the flight and maneuver of aircraft there
in force. Each contracting State undertakes to keep its own
regulations in these respects uniform, to the greatest possible
extent, with those established from time to time under this
Convention. Over the high seas, the rules in force shall be those
established under this Convention. Each contracting State
undertakes to insure the prosecution of all persons violating the
regulations applicable.
Having in mind Article 11 and specially Article 12 one would say that an EU registred aircraft, demanding another "state" like the USA, would have to comply with FARs and if demanding Brazil, for instance, would have to comply with RBHA.
Why then, are we (EU-OPS Registered companies) allowed to fly under our own policies to non EU states?
We have different minimums, different fuel policies, different holding paterns, etc.
Are there any written agreements that allow us to fly under our own policies to other Chicago Convention contracting states?
Thanks for your opinions.
A.
Last edited by aguadalte; 26th July 2011 at 02:03. Reason: to change title of thread
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From: engineer at large
The answer is yes. From my experience, you have to have 
..an exemption by the State to allow you to fly.
Now, if everything was in accordance with ICAO, everything, then you would not.
As an example, airports in the US meet FAA standards, not ICAO. The FAA can approve a US based carrier for RNP. The FAA cannot approve a foreign based carrier, as the airport would have to meet ICAO standards, and the FAA would have to use ICAO RNP design parameters, per the Chicago Convention.
Canada's WestJet tried to get the FAA authorization to use the Palm Springs RNP procedures, but could never get the OpSpec because of the Convention.
..an exemption by the State to allow you to fly.Now, if everything was in accordance with ICAO, everything, then you would not.
As an example, airports in the US meet FAA standards, not ICAO. The FAA can approve a US based carrier for RNP. The FAA cannot approve a foreign based carrier, as the airport would have to meet ICAO standards, and the FAA would have to use ICAO RNP design parameters, per the Chicago Convention.
Canada's WestJet tried to get the FAA authorization to use the Palm Springs RNP procedures, but could never get the OpSpec because of the Convention.
Last edited by FlightPathOBN; 25th July 2011 at 23:09. Reason: corrected per Checkboards comment...sorry 'bout that
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From: Ex-pat Aussie in the UK
No, you don't have an exemption. You have to obey the laws of the state you are flying in, just as you do when driving a car (you don't drive on the side you are used to - you drive on the side the local law states you drive on!)
This is the reason that differences from ICAO procedures are printed in Jeppesen Text manuals and the like. Significant differences should also be in your company's route manuals and training.
This is the reason that differences from ICAO procedures are printed in Jeppesen Text manuals and the like. Significant differences should also be in your company's route manuals and training.
Thread Starter
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From: Gone Flying...
hvogt:
That's what I think also.
Let's now make a practical exercise.
In the States, for example, one has to declare emergency when reaching the 45 minutes minimum fuel. However, by EU-OPS 1.255, the Fuel Reserve is only 30 minutes. When does an EU registered aircraft have to declare emergency? When reaching the 45 or the 30 minutes minimum fuel status? i.e., can we plan to fly to the States, with only 30 minutes of reserve fuel?
EU operators have to obey both EU-OPS and foreign national law. It is not a question of either/or.
Let's now make a practical exercise.
In the States, for example, one has to declare emergency when reaching the 45 minutes minimum fuel. However, by EU-OPS 1.255, the Fuel Reserve is only 30 minutes. When does an EU registered aircraft have to declare emergency? When reaching the 45 or the 30 minutes minimum fuel status? i.e., can we plan to fly to the States, with only 30 minutes of reserve fuel?
Last edited by aguadalte; 26th July 2011 at 02:00. Reason: to add question
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From: Hamburg
If US rules require you to declare an emergency when the 45 minutes state is reached you have to follow their rules and declare the emergency. You can't just say "We're Euro operators, we are going to ignore your regulations because we have our own." It's as simple as that. Think about Checkerboard's car driving example.
As for the question when an EU aircraft has to declare an emergency, the answer is whenever either applicable domestic (e.g. EU-OPS) or foreign rules (e.g. FAR) require it to do so.
As for the question when an EU aircraft has to declare an emergency, the answer is whenever either applicable domestic (e.g. EU-OPS) or foreign rules (e.g. FAR) require it to do so.
Thread Starter
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From: Gone Flying...
As for the question when an EU aircraft has to declare an emergency, the answer is whenever either applicable domestic (e.g. EU-OPS) or foreign rules (e.g. FAR) require it to do so.
i.e., can we plan to fly to the States, with only 30 minutes of reserve fuel?
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From: engineer at large
Check this FAR to see if it applies to your situation
According to the FAR 121.645..
you must have
Enroute reserve- 10%
Fuel to designated alternate-?
Hold fuel at 1500 feet-30 minutes
Note: I dont know if this applies to your situation.
According to the FAR 121.645..
you must have
Enroute reserve- 10%
Fuel to designated alternate-?
Hold fuel at 1500 feet-30 minutes
Note: I dont know if this applies to your situation.
Thread Starter
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From: Gone Flying...
Here's what I found out, about this subject:
International Air Carriers flying to the US, have to comply and are authorized to fly to the US of A, under 14CFR Parts 91 (General Operating and Flight Rules) and 129 (OPERATIONS: Foreign Air Carriers and Foreign Operators of U.S.-Registered Aircraft Engaged in Common Carriage), and 49CFR Part 175 (Carriage by Aircraft).
The DoT issues Ops Specs, that must be signed and accepted by the General Operations Manager of the airline who will be responsible to instruct his pilots, his maintenance and his operations to comply with those Specs.
In resume: The fueling issue that was raised in this thread may be answered via the observation of what is written in Part 129.19 (c), below:
§ 129.19 Air traffic rules and procedures
(a) Each pilot must be familiar with the applicable rules, the navigational and communications facilities, and the air traffic control and other procedures, of the areas to be traversed by him within the United States. (b) Each foreign air carrier shall establish procedures to assure that each of its pilots has the knowledge required by paragraph (a) of this section and shall check the ability of each of its pilots to operate safely according to applicable rules and procedures.
(c) Each foreign air carrier shall conform to the practices, procedures, and other requirements prescribed by the Administrator for U.S. air carriers for the areas to be operated in.
International Air Carriers flying to the US, have to comply and are authorized to fly to the US of A, under 14CFR Parts 91 (General Operating and Flight Rules) and 129 (OPERATIONS: Foreign Air Carriers and Foreign Operators of U.S.-Registered Aircraft Engaged in Common Carriage), and 49CFR Part 175 (Carriage by Aircraft).
The DoT issues Ops Specs, that must be signed and accepted by the General Operations Manager of the airline who will be responsible to instruct his pilots, his maintenance and his operations to comply with those Specs.
In resume: The fueling issue that was raised in this thread may be answered via the observation of what is written in Part 129.19 (c), below:
§ 129.19 Air traffic rules and procedures
(a) Each pilot must be familiar with the applicable rules, the navigational and communications facilities, and the air traffic control and other procedures, of the areas to be traversed by him within the United States. (b) Each foreign air carrier shall establish procedures to assure that each of its pilots has the knowledge required by paragraph (a) of this section and shall check the ability of each of its pilots to operate safely according to applicable rules and procedures.
(c) Each foreign air carrier shall conform to the practices, procedures, and other requirements prescribed by the Administrator for U.S. air carriers for the areas to be operated in.
